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TOPIC: Simon Ubsdell's SuperSearchField... Universal Smart Collection

Simon Ubsdell's SuperSearchField... Universal Smart Collection 16 May 2016 09:15 #76756

first thought to post in our mile-long thread about waiting-for-10.3., but I think it's worth its own discussion:
in context with 'keywording on import', one of the many wishes for future iterations of FCPX, ....

just read this article
fcpxpert.net/2016/05/14/guest-post-one-s...on-to-rule-them-all/

… which is a full-quote of a post of Simon Ubsdall @creativecow ....

the basic idea:
an constantly open Universal Smart Collection which instantly prompts you everything you're looking for .... kinda 'super search field', sotospeak (me claming origin of this silly word! :lol: )

.... that's an interesting concept, ok, two loopholes:
• demands very disciplined tagging
• not for the visual orientated = I can not say what I'm looking for, but I can tell when I see it ....- ;)

... before saying "nay", "been there", "for years doing so" etc. - just give it a try to one of your Libs .... astonishing! ....
Last Edit: 17 May 2016 03:31 by Karsten Schlüter.
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Simon Ubsdall's SuperSearchField... Universal Smart Collection 16 May 2016 13:05 #76775

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OK, it isn't a "discussion" without an opposing opinion. So, here goes, cause you asked. It's all word play, I see nothing of substance.

Yes, I just played with this concept for a few minutes. I imported into a new Library some clips I spend a good bit of time on last night, in a previously created Library, keyboarding. So I started identical Library, said media, no collections. And I found my Keyword collections much faster and easier to get to than having to check, uncheck, switch up search criteria, from a VERY LONG box of what I consider to be overwhelming options. I found it slow and clunky. Just my personal experience. But I did not take his advice, because his advice is simply re-wording who we make Keyword Collections in the first place, NOT a "NEW" way of working.

"My recommendation would be to think about ways of embedding metadata probably more systematically than you might have done otherwise."

That's the same thing as using Events and Keywords, embedding metadata, just in the Finder, rather than in the Browser. What's the difference? You still need Keyword Collections with his method. Without keywords, how would you fine "In-Flight B-Roll" clips? Or would you add that keyword in the Finder (as per the quote I supplied), rather than in the Browser, and the Browser is much easier to do that with.

The statement that creating locations to store things is old fashioned, is bull. I don't buy it. Fancy sounding words, but defy reality. He's creating something that sorts things out. I don't find searching Events for my Keywords difficult at all. I find it really easy and quick. Not sure why it all of the sudden is outdated.

Sorry, nice concept, but the editor STILL need to add metadata, which is what keywords is. He's just doing it in the Finder, rather than the Browser. Same process, different location, doesn't make it "different" or "easier".

Nope, I don't buy it. Sorry, but you asked.
Last Edit: 16 May 2016 13:12 by BenB.
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Simon Ubsdall's SuperSearchField... Universal Smart Collection 16 May 2016 14:49 #76786

BenB wrote:
…Nope, I don't buy it. Sorry, but you asked.

not need to 'sorry' anything, Ben, and I expected a comment like that from you .... 'cause you are knee-deep 'doing' FCPX, you have inhaled its concepts... SmartCollections are nothing new nor surprisingly for you.

But next time, you chat with some, say die-hard Avid user, and you tell him about this (academic) other extreme, no bins, no folders, no collections, nothing, just Simons Search Field .... a dynamic folder .... for a talk about how to structure material, this could create some "Aha!" effect.....

My biggest concerns I mentioned before: not every FCPX user has its own team of qualified ingestors, who tag every frame, with multiple keywords and some incredible order scheme…
My biggest NoGo: video is visual… and in that system, if you don't know the word (or number), you don't find it :woohoo:


But an interesting perspective! ... hope for further comments, and thanks Ben for replying so elaborated … could have been only a Balser-one-liner… ;)
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Simon Ubsdall's SuperSearchField... Universal Smart Collection 16 May 2016 16:12 #76796

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Realistically, if you don't have a post team with assistant editors to keyword, rename, etc, everything for you, then you're obviously not doing projects that large. This technique would never survive the TV show I'm working on now. Way too much, we need to search dialog that is in the notes fields, and this won't do that. Because we don't attach that metadata anywhere. And if we do, then this technique is not doing anything different. Not sure how this technique would find all my B-Roll from a snowmobile tour, as opposed to my B-Roll from a whitewater rafting tour, as opposed to an interview clip. Not sure how that'd be done without keyword collections. Oh, but he does that, in the Finder, EXACTLY like in the Browser.

It is an interesting trick, but it is only a parlor trick, not productive without tagging metadata that ends up as keywords. So I open this Master Search smart collection. I have to uncheck keyword collection I've previously checked, check the ones I want to search, and then I see what I want to see. Or, I just click once on the Keyword Collection normally. Not seeing it.

Again, I'm playing with this on my system, also. Nice concept, but having to make keyword collections, using metadata, it is all still necessary to input that. No difference is being made. I don't get how this is different. I so see it making things MORE complicated and taking MORE time to achieve.

I don't discuss FCPX with other NLE users unless they're at an FCPX event, or specifically ask me something. I don't have time for the flame wars anymore.
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Simon Ubsdall's SuperSearchField... Universal Smart Collection 16 May 2016 19:58 #76805

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Remember how long it took you to get your head around the basics concepts of FCP X when they first came along?

This is just like that.

If you dismiss it after just a few moments of playing around with it, you're really going to be missing out on a lot.

More to the point, if there are aspects of this technique that don't work for you, you should be raising them with Apple.

In two years time this will be how the best NLEs work. Whether FCP X is one of those, is really up to its users - if you don't urge Apple to give you the tools, someone else will make them. Resolve is already very close ...
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Simon Ubsdall's SuperSearchField... Universal Smart Collection 16 May 2016 20:09 #76806

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Just to add that I've made a video that explains it all a lot more clearly:

Last Edit: 17 May 2016 04:51 by ronny courtens.
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Simon Ubsdall's SuperSearchField... Universal Smart Collection 16 May 2016 20:35 #76807

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I'll chime in with my 2 cents later (actually working now... weird!) But I see both sides of this. The short version is... It's not perfect, and really needs a Library built with this technique in mind. The search HUD is genius, but needs to work across Libraries and be able to Hide/Show via KB. In a complex Library it's not faster, though if this functionality was built in, it probably could be. It's is way faster when using it in, for example, a dedicated SFX Library when building effects beds. Having all collections and search field hovering in one place lets you focus...


ScreenShot2016-05-16at1.34.43PM.png



As a concept, I agree with Simon. This is how it NLE's should work. Does it work now? kinda sorta not really yes depending on certain conditions. ;-)

More Later....
Can't sleep? Try this: fcpxpert.net ;-)
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Simon Ubsdell's SuperSearchField... Universal Smart Collection 17 May 2016 03:59 #76815

@Simon

Thank you, Simon, for chiming in, and spending time in demoeing your thoughts!
I'm still excited about the underlying concept of your Supersearch ... better: SuperFind field ;)

What you call 'containers', I calll for some time 'drawers' - you can put an item only in one drawer; but meta or tags are way more powerful... ok, no new news for FCPX veterans like Ben, but … anyhow!

We have to admit:
this discussion is more than 15y old - "iTunes killed my manually built, 40.ooo folders collections!" ... rings a bell, hm? ;) iTunes was - in my rememberance - the first meta-data driven media-tool ...
The old way was (and for some still is) "Yellow Submarine" - in what drawer/folder do I have to search, "Pop60ies", "Red Album", "Blue Album"? ..... with meta/tags, it doesn't matter WHERE it is categorized, just HOW ....

And that is a weak spot, imho, in that concept: no name no find.
Or, vice versa:
it asks for disciplined tagging, music was easy=automatic (gracenote?), with video.... hm.

Another argument could be:
"why typing 2,3,4,5x 'Photo', when a single click on a done-once SC 'photo' does the same?"
Imho, your idea of MasterSmartCollection isn't meant to replace 'my clutter of post-its', but to demo the power of combining not only tech-tags (e.g. creation date) but flexible, own search find criteria.

... hard to express in a foreign language, ... but: great!


And one day, I'll learn to spell your name correctly, Simon! ;)

....
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Simon Ubsdall's SuperSearchField... Universal Smart Collection 17 May 2016 04:48 #76817

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Some quick thoughts as I am playing around with this concept:

- I think it's a brilliant concept that deserves further investigation. Of course it does not replace the need for organizing your assets prior to editing, it actually encourages you to do this even more so you can use this search method to its full extent.

- I am totally in favor of simplified and sleek user interfaces like FCP X has, as opposed to the cluttered and counter-productive windows in Avid, Resolve or Premier. So if this idea allows me to easily search for my assets without even needing to open my Library pane, I cannot be against it.

- With its dynamic Keyword and Smart Collections, FCP X has without any doubt the best media organizing features on the NLE market. This quick search method based on a universal Smart Collection simply takes this advantage one step further again.

- Ronny
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Simon Ubsdell's SuperSearchField... Universal Smart Collection 17 May 2016 06:44 #76819

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I have long held the belief that genius of the metadata foundation of FCPX and Apple's MacOS direction points to natural language voice search assistant one day.

I'm sure FCPX will get auto transcription and along with all automatically generated metadata from the camera or user generated metadata will just form a searchable pool of data and it will be seen as completely normal to do a siri search to select material. 'Siri, find all my 4k handheld footage from last week's shoot that I rated 4 or above...' 'Siri, automatically add the Effect Preset 709 to all Log clips in the last search..'

I think Simon's Super Search Field is a tangible stepping stone towards the Pro Apps team's ultimate goal. I'm already barking orders at my AppleTV to find films to watch on iTunes and Netflix so it's really not a huge leap to expect this in FCPX sooner rather than later..
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Simon Ubsdell's SuperSearchField... Universal Smart Collection 17 May 2016 07:18 #76820

Unfenswinger wrote:
… a siri search to select material. 'Siri, find all my 4k handheld footage from last week's shoot that I rated 4 or above...' 'Siri, automatically add the Effect Preset 709 to all Log clips in the last search..' …..

these examples search for 'tech tags'.

What probably needs more advance in AI would be content tags, from (tech too) "show me all clips with a pan from left to right', to "all clips with the bride dancing" , up to "a clip where Tom walks faster thru the door" ...

And I'd call my assistent in FCPX 'Fini', not Siri, otherwise my iPad get confused .. LOL!!!!
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Simon Ubsdell's SuperSearchField... Universal Smart Collection 17 May 2016 07:38 #76821

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There will be a balance to be drawn between the ease of being able to determine content and the user being able to add their own tags but things like camera motion and shot size are already easily determined.

'Siri, range select the moment the Bride's mother got so pi$$ed she fell off her chair spilling wine over herself...tag that highlights...tag 5 stars' Already the wedding videographers are seeing the future...
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Simon Ubsdall's SuperSearchField... Universal Smart Collection 17 May 2016 07:44 #76822

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BenB wrote:
Realistically, if you don't have a post team with assistant editors to keyword, rename, etc, everything for you, then you're obviously not doing projects that large. This technique would never survive the TV show I'm working on now. Way too much, we need to search dialog that is in the notes fields, and this won't do that. Because we don't attach that metadata anywhere. And if we do, then this technique is not doing anything different. Not sure how this technique would find all my B-Roll from a snowmobile tour, as opposed to my B-Roll from a whitewater rafting tour, as opposed to an interview clip. Not sure how that'd be done without keyword collections. Oh, but he does that, in the Finder, EXACTLY like in the Browser.

It is an interesting trick, but it is only a parlor trick, not productive without tagging metadata that ends up as keywords. So I open this Master Search smart collection. I have to uncheck keyword collection I've previously checked, check the ones I want to search, and then I see what I want to see. Or, I just click once on the Keyword Collection normally. Not seeing it.

Again, I'm playing with this on my system, also. Nice concept, but having to make keyword collections, using metadata, it is all still necessary to input that. No difference is being made. I don't get how this is different. I so see it making things MORE complicated and taking MORE time to achieve.

I don't discuss FCPX with other NLE users unless they're at an FCPX event, or specifically ask me something. I don't have time for the flame wars anymore.

Why so dismissive and critical Ben? All Simon is trying to do is pass on some tips and tricks that people 'may' find helpful/useful in their workflow. It won't work for everyone but I personally think it's got legs.
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Simon Ubsdell's SuperSearchField... Universal Smart Collection 17 May 2016 07:46 #76823

the term 'wedding' is still an excellent working bait to trigger reactions! :whistle:

conc. content tags:
the Magic Keywording, Philip H. presented at NAB within the Lumberjack suit of apps goes in that direction....
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Simon Ubsdell's SuperSearchField... Universal Smart Collection 17 May 2016 08:09 #76825

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Karsten Schlüter wrote:

conc. content tags:
the Magic Keywording, Philip H. presented at NAB within the Lumberjack suit of apps goes in that direction....

Ah, yes. That's what I was thinking too when I said the ease of the user adding the tag. I thought you meant the computer being able to determine content which is another interesting area of development.

The next few years are going to be interesting as all the disparate strands of development are woven together.
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Simon Ubsdell's SuperSearchField... Universal Smart Collection 17 May 2016 08:27 #76826

Unfenswinger wrote:
...thought you meant the computer being able to determine content which is another interesting area of development...

that's what I meant initially, indeed. :)
But my hopes in machine-created-content discriptions are low.
Lumberjacks Magic Keyword is a mixture - man typed/'discribed', machine filtered/counted ...

Although, the hit-rate of iPhoto/Faces years ago (!) really kicked my off my chair...!
maybe, this is the next step:
you teach the machine, 'woman in white dress'=bride, then it tracks down and labels all frames with that (hum, well, you could 'abuse' the face recognition for that ....)

and when the manual of my cam doesn't lie, never tried, that piece of metal does know when my subjects smile...

.......... a bit spookey, when you think about it in detail...... :S
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Simon Ubsdall's SuperSearchField... Universal Smart Collection 17 May 2016 12:55 #76832

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"Remember how long it took you to get your head around the basics concepts of FCP X when they first came along?"
Yeah, like 2 minutes. That was the beauty of it originally.

"Why so dismissive and critical Ben?"
Because Karsten asked for opinions, and I gave mine, honestly and as I see it, as asked. Really? I could equally ask, "Why so conformist, dude?" But that gets us nowhere. A discussion is not the same as a pep-rally for a single, un-challanged idea.

Either way, you're still entering Keywords, and Simon states that is outdated. But he STILL does it in his "groundbreaking" workflow. I'm simply pointing out, when asked to, the contradiction in this technique. So what? Attack the guy with the differing opinion? That's really productive...

At least I'm responding to actually DOING this, and how I'm finding it to work in my REAL WOLD scenarios, not some fantasy.
Last Edit: 17 May 2016 12:58 by BenB.
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Simon Ubsdall's SuperSearchField... Universal Smart Collection 17 May 2016 13:18 #76836

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BenB wrote:
"But he STILL does it in his "groundbreaking" workflow. I'm simply pointing out, when asked to, the contradiction in this technique. So what? Attack the guy with the differing opinion? That's really productive...

It's not your difference of opinion that is the issue here Ben, it's the tone in which you sometimes choose to communicate that opinion by dismissing other people's opinions or suggestions as folly because it's not for you.

Simon has shared something in good faith and even gone to the lengths of making a 10 minute video to further demonstrate it in the event that it might be helpful. He gains nothing by doing this, he just wants to contribute.

If it's not for you, that's fine ... but there's no need to then suggest Simon is talking out of his backside is there?
Last Edit: 17 May 2016 13:20 by damiangrady.
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Simon Ubsdall's SuperSearchField... Universal Smart Collection 17 May 2016 15:43 #76840

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OK folks, it might be a good idea, it might be a bad idea, but there is no room on this board for having a go at other people.

Everybody, please keep it to the point or I'll lock this rather interesting thread.

Peter
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Simon Ubsdell's SuperSearchField... Universal Smart Collection 17 May 2016 19:04 #76848

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I've watched Simon's video and it's an interesting take on using Smart Collections. I share his endorsement of the fact that the Filter window is a floating panel, which can be useful - especially in multi-screen configurations

The one huge drawback that I can see for this technique (and it's more an indictment of FCPX than Simon's workflow) is the way Apple handles Keywords in the filter. If you have a large number of Keywords in your Library for whatever reason, it can get very difficult to turn on/off groups of keywords. I know that typically you would just be turning on/off single Keywords for most filtering, but if you get into a situation where you're using multiple Keywords when filtering clips, you end up having to do a lot of niggly checkbox clicking. This is of course alleviated to some extent with the Check All / Check None drop-down, but not entirely.

Tangentially, it would be great if there were a way to include Keyword values in the Text field in the Filter window (and/or text search in Keyword section itself). I've been asking Apple for this for years.
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