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TOPIC: Best workflow with GH5 4k 10 bit footage WHILE using KeyFlow Pro?

Best workflow with GH5 4k 10 bit footage WHILE using KeyFlow Pro? 06 Dec 2017 23:44 #92126

  • talonhead
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Hey guys. I've introduced (to me) a whole other can of worms into my workflow....now I'm shooting 4k 10 bit ALL-I footage. And as you well know, 4k 10 bit isn't that easily viewed without first a few extra steps.

I know I can merely convert the footage into proxies to view and edit within FCPX...that part is fine. My question is, how can one review ALL the footage shot before it's even brought into FCPX for editing? A no go? This is why I ask...

I have been using KeyFlow Pro for my MAM. Now, that seems rather difficult to incorporate with this footage as, much like with QT, you can't view this kind of footage without first converting. Just added a step here before even seeing what I shot.

I'm used to using KFP to view ALL the media (like from dailies), make annotations along the way (such as with markers, keys, and favorites), and drag and drop only the clips I need into FCPX for the editing process. Not now with this kind of footage. I really don't like the idea of bringing this "heavy" footage into FCPX and converting if there are "junk" clips that will never be used (I put HD space in high regard). But you really don't know that it's "junk" until it is brought in and converted so that it can be viewed. I haven't mentioned the time factor involved here...which a lot of the times, I don't have enough of. Hmm...

Actually up to this point, I've just dragged and dropped what I wanted into FCPX and edited "pretty much" everything as "original" media...and left files in place on a plain Jane platter storage drive. My machine ingested it pretty well...but oh boy...not now.

So after all of this long-winded story-telling (and I hope it's understandable), what is the most efficient way to work with this stuff guys?? All insights are welcomed.

Thanks a BUNCH for your time!!
Last Edit: 06 Dec 2017 23:47 by talonhead.
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Best workflow with GH5 4k 10 bit footage WHILE using KeyFlow Pro? 07 Dec 2017 04:34 #92129

  • Axel
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I only downloaded small snippets of GH5 footage so far from various sources, so I can't really tell about performance. But 10-bit, All-i and even HLG loaded fine in FCP X and (for the 10 seconds or so the clips ran) could all be played in realtime.

QT refuses them (well, at least 10-bit and HLG), and perhaps your MAM relies on QT?

If All-Intra doesn't playback well, it must be your CPU which has no Quicksync or whatever. Because the 400mbps are supposed to be more edit-friendly - no temporal compression.
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Best workflow with GH5 4k 10 bit footage WHILE using KeyFlow Pro? 07 Dec 2017 04:49 #92130

  • FernKraft
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I havn't yet used the all-i codec, but I'll run some tests tomorrow with FCPX.

I know our 2013 macpro does stutter with the 10 bit 150 mbps Lgop codec, but Axel is correct, the all-i should be fine.

can't speak for Keyflow, but I can check kyno for anybody else.

Is it possible to share the Original files with us?

Thanks,
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Best workflow with GH5 4k 10 bit footage WHILE using KeyFlow Pro? 07 Dec 2017 09:38 #92131

  • talonhead
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Thanks guys for your thoughts! Very much appreciated.

Keyflow *does* rely apparently what QT can undertake. If a clip plays great with QT, it will play great within KFP. If it stutters with QT, it will stutter with KFP. If it does not play at all with not even a thumbnail generated, this will also be reflected in KFP.

So THAT said, I went ahead and DLed the trial of Kyno (thanks Fern) to see how it's player treats these dubious 10 bit files. Shocking! Although it stuttered on the 150MB/s footage, it did not on the 400. Fact of the matter is, at least I was able to *view* what it was I had shot from the GH5 no mater what the bitrate was. At least good enough to find good sections and what I need to tag and/or key. I REALLY like the fact that nothing is ingested with Kyno. I don't even have to create preview files (which was a long-assed task in KFP all in itself). It allows me to take a peek into all sorts of the crazy folder structures that I have...instantly.

But I sure wish you could drag and drop doctored up files in Kyno into FCPX. I get the "+" sign when attempting but it doesn't go. :( It has to be exported as XML. Maybe in an update someday?

For the record, FCPX, on my machine at least, will stutter playback with 400MB/s 10 bit footage. It *has* to be transcoded before I can even touch it. As Axel pointed out, I'm sure that is my processor just huffing away. Maybe I'll start a GoFundMe for a new MP.

Transcode only sections of a clip before I bring it in with handles I can predefine? Finally! What rock was I hiding under???

I think I might have a solution that will work for me using Kyno. I'm going to keep test driving...but so far so good.

I think I'm going to dig this...
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Best workflow with GH5 4k 10 bit footage WHILE using KeyFlow Pro? 07 Dec 2017 14:33 #92138

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talonhead wrote:
But I sure wish you could drag and drop doctored up files in Kyno into FCPX. I get the "+" sign when attempting but it doesn't go. :( It has to be exported as XML. Maybe in an update someday?

I have Kyno too. Don't use it for my "tests" and for my wedding videos though, because I find the FCP X import and management leaves little to complain there.

For the more ambitious short film I'm currently working on, the proprietary way of FCP to organize the footage just doesn't fit. I preview everything from the card, subclip it ("s") and export it directly to ProRes (from then on the "Original Media", my source is XAVC).

The XML method of sending the media to FCP X is failsafe/foolproof. You can actually drag&drop the folders created with Kyno to the FCP X event (with leave files in place checked or not in preferences, personally I like the idea of a copy in the library), but the added notes and other metadata would be lost. And you can XML (shift cmd f) as often as needed, as new clips need to be imported.

Kyno has also limitations regarding GH5 footage. It will eventually import 10-bit clips (though at first it said "file could not be recognized" or so - was that added in the 1.3 update? I don't know). No problem at all with Intra. But it won't allow HLG. Feature request on the Kyno site, the chief engineer answers late, but in person.

HDR is still in it's infancy, nobody can say for sure how fast it will reach the masses. Anyway, particularly FOR YOU, quite a few obstacles are being lifted right now. First of all, your camera has as well 10-bit as HLG. Then, FCP 10.4 will have HDR tools. Yes, I know, Resolve also has. But the workflow is intimidating, and to export a clip compliant with Youtube settings asf. approximates rocket science. This could become a comparatively straightforward affair with 10.4: "share". HEVC allows 10-bit UHD, it should be a matter of the right flags in a predefined setting.

Because the display/monitor/smart TV interprets the HDR, you'd still need at least such a modern TV to preview it.

If my only problem was that my Mac couldn't play back my clips natively in realtime, I wouldn't worry too much. There are ways. Rough preview with VLC (not used very often currently). Optimize all clips with FCP, then rip the library to make the HIGH QUALITY MEDIA > TRANSCODED MEDIA the new originals and import only selections from there.

Awkward? Of course. Have you ever been using Log & Transfer of legacy FCP?

Kyno would be ideal. The company calls itself "Lesspain software".
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Best workflow with GH5 4k 10 bit footage WHILE using KeyFlow Pro? 07 Dec 2017 15:13 #92140

  • joema
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talonhead wrote:
GH5...I'm shooting 4k 10 bit ALL-I footage... 4k 10 bit isn't that easily viewed without first a few extra steps.... how can one review ALL the footage shot before it's even brought into FCPX for editing?...KeyFlow Pro...that seems rather difficult to incorporate with this footage...you can't view this kind of footage without first converting....I'm used to using KFP to view ALL the media (like from dailies), make annotations along the way (such as with markers, keys, and favorites), and drag and drop only the clips I need into FCPX for the editing process... you really don't know that it's "junk" until it is brought in and converted so that it can be viewed. I haven't mentioned the time factor involved here...Kyno....Although it stuttered on the 150MB/s footage, it did not on the 400.... I was able to *view* what it was I had shot from the GH5 no mater what the bitrate was...But I sure wish you could drag and drop doctored up files in Kyno into FCPX.... I'm sure that is my processor just huffing away. Maybe I'll start a GoFundMe for a new MP....

My documentary group has a GH5 and for now I told them don't use the 10-bit codec. You can view the footage using VLC, it's just not real fast. It is possible with FCPX 10.4 there may be better support. Another option is EditReady2 can transcode (not re-wrap) the 10-bit material, but it's no faster at transcoding to ProRes 422 optimized media than FCPX is.

GH5 10-bit material will play in FCPX if imported with "leave files in place" but it's very slow. This isn't a hardware issue -- I have a top-spec 2017 iMac 27, which is 2x faster than a 12-core D700 Mac Pro at handling H264 content. I don't know why the 10-bit GH5 material is so slow. I've edited a lot of 8-bit 4k 4:2:2 300 mbps All-I MXF material from a Canon XC10. That plays OK via Quick Look and Quicktime Player, however the thumbnails don't show in Finder.

If the GH5 10-bit material is imported to FCPX and proxies created, it's very fast, and this takes less space and time than transcoding (internally or externally) to another 4k codec. So in theory we could do that now -- we import and transcode all other 4k content to proxy, so it would be no workflow change for us. It's just harder to browse it at the Finder level. Obviously if you use external tools like Keyflow Pro and Kyno, those also need some solution.

Admittedly, browsing through video files at the Finder level has long been a standard practice. However this was based on editing software being clunky and slow at browsing content and having limited organization features. FCPX changed all that. It is lighting fast -- faster than any other external browsing software. It has good organizing features.

Importing everything to FCPX and marking rejects there requires a mind set change, but it works very well and avoids plodding, slow browsing at the Finder level. Even Kyno is not as fast as FCPX at skimming material. It also avoids two organizing passes, one outside FCPX and one inside, and it avoids the issues of most external software not having range-tagging ability and how to get their tags into FCPX. After the project is over the non-rejected material can be consolidated to another library for archiving.

Right now I am editing a 20 terabyte documentary which is mostly 8-bit H264 4k imported with "leave files in place", with proxies created for everything. This is on a 2017 iMac 27, but it also ran on a 2015 iMac.

Since proxies by default go inside the library, this would normally make the library larger. However proxies can be stored outside the library using the procedure described in Ripple Training's FCPX 10.3 Media Management class.

I know that's not a solution if you're using KeyFlow Pro but that's what we do and it works very well. The collaborative features of Keyflow Pro are nice and we might use that some day.
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Best workflow with GH5 4k 10 bit footage WHILE using KeyFlow Pro? 09 Dec 2017 13:38 #92176

  • talonhead
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First, thanks guys for taking the time out to type out your very detailed replies. Much appreciated! Since I started this post, I've messed around quite a bit with Kyno, and I believe it's going to work for me. It might not have the collaborative power that KFP has, but I work alone. Not a factor with me.

Thomas over at Kyno has been very speedy in his replies about this software, and that goes miles with me. He currently said when I asked about a drag and drop feature (instead of using the slower method of exporting XMLs which you *have* to do if you want to keep your annotations): "we will look into this. However, this will not make it into the upcoming version 1.4, because we are in feature freeze for that release, which will be packed with a lot of other nice things that save time, by the way."

Not too shab...

This post started out as a workflow related post with 4k 10 bit, but somehow took me on a course of merely using a different MAM to address my needs.

I've even addressed updating my current 5,1 machine to a 12 core (been using single quad at 2.8 and been delaying processor upgrades as long as possible). That will help I'm sure with anything I need it to do for another block of years. It just made better sense to me to just use what I have instead of dropping 5 grand or more on the new iMac Pro coming out or even more loot, the new modular MacPro to be released who knows when. Too many big changes at Apple coming up in this area of pro computing, so I'm waiting. I'm also like most creative independent folks out there...overworked and underpaid.

So, all in all, guys thanks for sharing your detailed info with me. It's all good!
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