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TOPIC: FCP X need this fuction - timeline in/out delete

FCP X need this fuction - timeline in/out delete 09 Jan 2018 10:36 #93087

  • wawany
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I think this is good time to share about my expierence. As a broadcast system integration engineer, FCP X is hard challenge to adopt to FCP 7 envirment. There are many reasons but most big issues are solved like Audio Role instead of audio tracks, XDCAM MXF export directly and so on.

Nevertheless big updates of FCP X, I still feel difficult to persuade FCP 7 users to transfer FCP X. First, FCP 7 users loves tracks. I totally agree with Magnetic timeline is awesome. I really enjoying it and I can explain easily to FCP 7 users most case but there is a very specific way to edit in Korean broadcasters.

Most of them shoot shows with over 25 cameras. They don’t script their footage but make “layers timeline”, which is all clips are synced and use all tracks. and they choose moments with deleting segment of clips. so they much do timeline in/ out and delete clips. This way is very hard to do in FCP X.

Because very obviously FCP X doesn’t have tracks. Multicam can be helpful, but there are some reasons to use three or four Multicam is needed. Deleting all clips at once instead of mark in/out and after that select primary story line’s clip and delete it. This is almost same as “Mark in/out delete” but still need some more action.

More difficult point is extend all layered clips at once. A Primary storyline cilp and connected clips’ edit point are not selected at the same time. If there is second storyline, things are more annoying. I hope many pro editors understand my point despite of my poor English.

My point is I need FCP 7’s “Mark in/out Delete” on FCP X. and easy audio cross dissolve as we discussed in the other thread.

I hope to listen your opinion.

PS : It’s very hard to write english to me. so probably hard to reply all. sorry.
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FCP X need this fuction - timeline in/out delete 11 Jan 2018 05:21 #93119

Welcome Wan Lee to fcp.co :)

wawany wrote:
…Most of them shoot shows with over 25 cameras. ….

… can you elaborate on this number/process?
An average soccer-game here in Germany utilizes ~18 cams - for a live-broadcast of a match with 22 players …
And when I was in the broadcast-industry, for Wheel-Of-Fortune, a 'live on tape'-recorded gameshow (=only minor edits in post), we used 6 cams, max.

So, it overwhelms my narrow imagination, how or why using two dozen cameras for a post-edited show (??).

Multicam is no replacement for tracks; Multicam is for synching simultaneous 'events', e.g. recording a concert… but twenty-five? That's special, indeed … I should spend more time in watching K-Pop ;)
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FCP X need this fuction - timeline in/out delete 11 Jan 2018 16:16 #93133

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"...and they choose moments with deleting segment of clips. so they much do timeline in/ out and delete clips. This way is very hard to do in FCP X."

Hit R for the range tool, click-drag to select a range, and either Delete or Shift-Delete. It's actually easier and faster in X than in 7. Or am I missing something?
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FCP X need this fuction - timeline in/out delete 12 Jan 2018 21:54 #93218

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wawany wrote:
...there is a very specific way to edit in Korean broadcasters....

This is likely because of the limitations of their prior editing software, not because of a planned approach. There is a saying, "When a hammer is all you've got, everything looks like a nail". When a timeline is all they've had for years, everything look like a track. But using tracks for everything is not the right tool for all tasks. FCPX has better, faster tools, if they can break free from their ingrained past practices.

wawany wrote:
....Most of them shoot shows with over 25 cameras. They don’t script their footage but make “layers timeline”, which is all clips are synced and use all tracks...

Of course that is what they use. That is all track-oriented software (inc'l FCP7) can offer. I would hardly expect them to use a skimmer on FCP7 since it does not exist, or the sluggish, primitive "hover scrub" feature in Premiere Pro. Throwing everything on a timeline is the only practical option in those cases. But it's not the only (or the best) option for FCPX.

wawany wrote:
......and they choose moments with deleting segment of clips. so they much do timeline in/ out and delete clips. This way is very hard to do in FCP X...

You can do that on FCPX, so I don't see what is "very hard" about it. You just mark the in/out points on the timeline and press either delete or shift+delete to leave a gap clip in that place. It's true it doesn't work the same for a connected clip, so if you want the ripple behavior it must be a secondary storyline. Just click on the clip and press CMD+G.

In general a better way is sync all the cameras in a multicam clip, then scrub through that using the angle viewer and rate/keyword the ranges you want. There is a limitation in FCPX whereby you can't keyword/rate an individual angle within a multicam clip. If anyone has a suggestion on that I'd like to hear it.

wawany wrote:
...Because very obviously FCP X doesn’t have tracks. Multicam can be helpful, but there are some reasons to use three or four Multicam is needed. Deleting all clips at once instead of mark in/out and after that select primary story line’s clip and delete it. This is almost same as “Mark in/out delete” but still need some more action...

Note sure what you mean but you can easily blade and delete all layers on FCPX. Just use SHFT+CMD+B which cuts all of them in a single operation, then blade the other side, select and delete.

wawany wrote:
....More difficult point is extend all layered clips at once. A Primary storyline cilp and connected clips’ edit point are not selected at the same time. If there is second storyline, things are more annoying....

If you select the entire stack, CTRL+D, then enter (for example +10) it extends the entire stack by that amount. Likewise if you enter -10 it trims the entire stack.

wawany wrote:
....I need...easy audio cross dissolve as we discussed in the other thread...

Here is a free audio-only cross dissolve: blog.alex4d.com/2011/07/11/fcpx-transition-sound-only/

In MacBreak Studio #295 they show how to build your own audio only cross fade using one keystroke in Motion:
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FCP X need this fuction - timeline in/out delete 16 Jan 2018 13:56 #93374

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Thank all of your comments. I'll try add some more details to explain.

Karsten Schlüter wrote

"Multicam is no replacement for tracks; Multicam is for synching simultaneous 'events', e.g. recording a concert"

Right. That's common usage of Multicam. Why Korean Broadcasters are using Multicam is absolutely different. It's a Korean way. I explained this kind of editing to others, but I heard that only Korean do that way.

You can imagine how Reality show is edited. Ingest, log many kinds of meta data, collect clips, share stories... In general this kind of job is very divided. but Korean Broadcasters way is different. They are using SAN storage to share all clips together. They don't like to categorize clips. Keywords is not options to them. They sync clips using tracks or multicam. It's not even simultaneous event, just what happened at the same real time.

Korean broadcasters make entertainment shows as a kind of Reality show. They have many show hosts and guests. Each of them need their own camera and audio recorder. One of Korean show used over 100 cameras for shooting show guests' reactions. so in track based NLE, each track means a camera which following someone. and top two or three of tracks are actually showing the show.

It's a trend. When we record a show in a tape, this can't be done. Cheap cameras and poor formats like AVCHD make this possible which I hate very very much.

Anyway back to editing.

Normally FCP X editors try to find good moments using clip's metadata, someone's comments, scripts, and skimming clips... etc. and gather the good clips using Favorites, Keywords, Events. and Timeline is actually using for story. Korean editors use timeline to sync clips. and delete unimportant moments on timeline. Not much use of Favorite. No use of keyword. I think this is opposite approach to the goal to use timeline. One is to add clips to make a story in timeline. I call it plus editing. Koreans is delete clips to make a story in timeline. I call it minus editing.

Movies, Commercials, Documentaries, News... most video editing is plus editing. but if you have to edit too many un-defined clips, minus edit can be an alternative way.

It's too late and I am tired to explain this in English. so let me do this later. Please forgive me.

PS: I'll replay as soon as possible.
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FCP X need this fuction - timeline in/out delete 16 Jan 2018 14:10 #93377

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I meant "Timeline in/out" which is for many clips on many tracks. Not only primary storyline but also all connected clips.

MOD speaking: new members first 3 posts need manual approval … and we don't do 24/7 here ;) Nothing lost, just lazy… :silly:
Last Edit: 16 Jan 2018 18:04 by Karsten Schlüter.
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FCP X need this fuction - timeline in/out delete 16 Jan 2018 18:35 #93385

wawany wrote:
… Why Korean Broadcasters are using Multicam is absolutely different. It's a Korean way. I explained this kind of editing to others, but I heard that only Korean do that way.
…One of Korean show used over 100 cameras for shooting show guests' reactions. ….

No offense, but that is hilarious… We would call this Attrition Warfare… and a bad director (= I was a producer… always minimizing $$$/€€€).
As mentioned before: we caught the reaction of 3 contestants and a host and audience and the letter-girl with max. six cams… Looking like 20. The director has to decide live what's golden, what's trash.-

I've seen Japanese gameshows in the past, yeah, 'thousands' of protagonists (as an example; Takeshi Castle). But hundred cams? And hard to believe, ANY edit-system is able to handle 100 streams simultaneously

… aside, most of the time most of the cams don't record anything worthy: as an example, the host explains today's episode = 1 close to him, maybe a 2 wider to include assistants, and for hosts vanity a 3 cam from a diff angle … some jib/spider, 2 steady-cams for clappers/audience, 2-3 unmanned for studio/set. Done.
but meanwhile +90 cams are idle - need not to run… nor have to be in synch with main cam …

But who am I teaching Korean broadcasters how to 'block' a show ??? :whistle:
Please don't take this as a personal offense! Just beyond me & my experience …

(do you have probably a link to some making-of/behind the scenes? Or at last a trailer for such a show? language doesn't matter, just curios of visualization of a show with 100 cams in use. …



Maybe Ronny joins this thread… he has seen 'everything' and done 'everything' in TVproduction… but a 100 cam…
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FCP X need this fuction - timeline in/out delete 16 Jan 2018 19:11 #93386

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wawany wrote:
....Korean Broadcasters way is different......They don't like to categorize clips. Keywords is not options to them. They sync clips using tracks or multicam... One of Korean show used over 100 cameras for shooting show guests' reactions. so in track based NLE, each track means a camera which following someone. and top two or three of tracks are actually showing the show....Normally FCP X editors try to find good moments using clip's metadata, someone's comments, scripts, and skimming clips... etc. and gather the good clips using Favorites, Keywords, Events. and Timeline is actually using for story. Korean editors use timeline to sync clips. and delete unimportant moments on timeline. Not much use of Favorite. No use of keyword. ...

Thanks, that is a good explanation. We understand there may be rigidly ingrained workflows and some will never change from that. If so, there is little reason to question why FCPX does not have a certain feature. FCPX will never be changed to a "pancaked" timeline metaphor.

Before Randy Ubillos designed FCPX, he invented Adobe Premiere, developed the first three versions of that, then developed legacy Final Cut. After some difficulty he managed to break away from the same old way of doing things. His concept for FCPX was not a "flight of fancy" just to be different -- it was a well-reasoned, informed design choice based on years of experience developing NLE software.

While FCPX is not perfect, it is being effectively used for professional documentary and reality TV. In fact I think productions with high shooting ratios (like documentary and reality) are the strongest argument for FCPX -- even more than scripted narratives.

I seriously doubt the FCPX fundamental storyline and database metaphor will ever change dramatically. Thus if the Korean broadcasters aren't comfortable organizing material except on the timeline, if they must use (and visually see) many dozens of tracks, they may as well start looking at Premiere Pro, Avid or Resolve now. The risk is if one of their competitors adopts FCPX, those might gain an advantage in efficiency and time-to-market.

The documentary about FCPX called "Off the Tracks" will be released soon, maybe that will help some people understand: www.offthetracksmovie.com/
Last Edit: 16 Jan 2018 19:11 by joema.
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FCP X need this fuction - timeline in/out delete 17 Jan 2018 17:25 #93427

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I've been studying the "Pancake Timelines" in PPro. All I see is that it is a way to get around good media management and be lazy. In my personal opinion, it wastes time in the edit. Or maybe I'm missing the point...

Anyway, you're not going to change the Korean production culture over night. Eventually they'll figure it out on their own.
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FCP X need this fuction - timeline in/out delete 17 Jan 2018 18:24 #93429

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FCPX.guru wrote:
I've been studying the "Pancake Timelines" in PPro. All I see is that it is a way to get around good media management and be lazy. In my personal opinion, it wastes time in the edit. Or maybe I'm missing the point..

The problem is legacy FCP, Resolve or Premiere (until fairly recently) had no extensive organizational tools except timelines. They still have nothing like the FCPX skimmer even today. That's why editors became accustomed to just putting everything on several timelines, stacking up tracks and using the timeline as a "poor man's skimmer". The timeline was they only thing they had that worked fast.

There's also a significant mental difference between viewing material spatially on a timeline vs viewing it as database attributes and queries. People tend to think of data in spatial terms, e.g, "Smith" is sorted below "Brown", so they scroll down to find "Smith". It can be difficult to think in relational terms where they must do a query or access a saved query where last name = "Smith". So making that transition can be difficult.

Premiere now has "search bins" and tags, but these are clip-based not range-based. I don't know how fast or reliable they are or what % of current Premiere editors use them extensively.

However, since the Korean editors mentioned in this thread have already decided they'll never use any organizational technique besides the timeline, Premiere's smart bins and tags will do them no more good than FCPX's keywords and ratings.
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FCP X need this fuction - timeline in/out delete 18 Jan 2018 14:44 #93448

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To JOEMA

Thank you for your thoughtful suggestions. I really like your suggestions and your deep thought about software design. And also I like your passion for FCP X. I’m eagerly waiting “Off the Tracks” for a long time.

I think “Pancake Timelines” is not good way to edit. So I tried to make not to edit that way for my friends. Especially on FCP X. I suggests them make a Multicam instead of “Pancake Timelines”. I think they easily understand a Multicam is better than “the Pancake”.

Here is another point. FCP X make a new way to edit. Fast, efficient, elegance. I truly love the way FCP X’s intend. and I saw FCP X team make an effort to give people to choice. There are Position tool, Event viewer, Roles, and so on. I asked “timeline in/out” but I mentioned previously that “timeline in/out” is not a big deal. All layered clip’s trimming is more important.

If I can use “control + [“ as “selecting all left ripple point”, it would be fantastic. Like FCP 7’s v and u choice. It’s a good option to trim all clip at once. I believe no one hurts from this function.

“Pancake Timelines” is not good way to edit. On the other hand there is no absolute way to edit. People can do their work with their way. “Pancake Timelines” could be an alternative way to overcome technical limitations. So maybe I would say it a creative way. It’s on their choice.
Last Edit: 18 Jan 2018 15:06 by wawany.
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FCP X need this fuction - timeline in/out delete 18 Jan 2018 15:00 #93450

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To Karsten Schlüter

The show was a “survival blind dating competition” named “Solo Wars”. In the opening sequence, 50 men and 50 women gather in a studio. They have their own camera and talk each others freely. No one guide to people to do something. Nothing is planed. No one knows what they will do. That was the concept for 100 cameras.

Many other Korean producers and directors also say that’s crazy concept. But it happened. They made it. Unfortunately the show was not much popular than I expect. What do you think of it? Interesting or creepy? :)
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Last Edit: 18 Jan 2018 15:04 by wawany.
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FCP X need this fuction - timeline in/out delete 18 Jan 2018 16:44 #93464

wawany wrote:
… a “survival blind dating competition” named “Solo Wars”. In the opening sequence, 50 men and 50 women gather in a studio. They have their own camera and talk each others freely. No one guide to people to do something. Nothing is planed. No one knows what they will do. That was the conce… Interesting or creepy? :)

it's a while ago, I got daily dozen of 'concepts' for gameshows (I summarize Solo Wars to that genre…).
Hmmm…?
Explains why 100 cam in use, THANK you for explaining. An editor's nightmare :lol:
And me, the viewer, get seasick…

Generally spoken:
ANY shows needs a start and an end - at last for the viewer. If you have no start = identification with the protagonists, you don't care who wins, who lose. If you have no goal (the million, survival, best, funniest. whatever), then there's no reason to watch it longer than 60secs.

So, it's some sort of matching/dating game? Hmmm…
Putting 100 ready-to-mate males / females into one room, in hope they flirt, is no show, and no concept… and as a producer, I can not 'steer' the drama (except with casting of weirdos which creates chaos = one hit wonder…).

And to come back to the 100 cam thing:
just IF 3 or 4 couples start to flirt, how do you=the watcher follow that? How should the editor edit that?? "meanwhile on the other side of the room..."??? four times??

DOA - wouldn't even get a dev-budget from my pockets …

… and my verdict is mostly conceptional …
not respecting any cultural aspects … no idea, how Mr Kim meets Ms Kim in real life …

Not interesting, not creepy.
And, although voyeuristic, insane boring.

my 5 € cents…
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FCP X need this fuction - timeline in/out delete 18 Jan 2018 18:14 #93471

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I'm going to guess you don't have teenage daughters, Karsten? LOL!
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FCP X need this fuction - timeline in/out delete 19 Jan 2018 05:16 #93491

FCPX.guru wrote:
I'm going to guess you don't have teenage daughters, Karsten? LOL!

… one video project at school I support as 'volunteer consultant', was a Rap-Video … don't ask me, what 14-16y old girls have in their wardrobe!! Posting screengrabs would violate many laws in most countries!

President Obama once said in an interview, I'm paraphrasing "I'm telling every new friend of my daughters 'I can call nukes with a click of a button'…" Now, that is some degree of fatherhood …
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FCP X need this fuction - timeline in/out delete 19 Jan 2018 12:57 #93503

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Teenage girls need three things to survive: food, fashionable clothes, drama. The last item is actually the single most important, thus, they eat these shows up big time.
Last Edit: 19 Jan 2018 14:53 by ronny courtens.
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