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TOPIC: Going down the youtube drain

Going down the youtube drain 12 Sep 2015 02:38 #68342

Greg

DO NOT PLACE ANY PRIDE/DISAPPOITMENT IN YOUTUBE NUMBERS.


There is no correlation between the quality of a work and the views !

Some videos concentrate the maximum views, some others not. Apart from a few exceptions, it takes MARKETING to get a video launched and get responses.


First of all your work might belong more to Vimeo. It's more of a community and when you start posting in the right groups, meet some people with similar tastes, you will probably get more answers.


Your pictures are really beautiful, the places you go very interesting because so unknown !

Quick advice: do not waste time with logos, titles, etc in the beginning. It takes too long before the real video starts.

Personally, I would prefer seeing your pictures full frame, without animation. I can enjoy the framing, take my time... By doing diaporamas you might not use all the potential of video, which is mainly used for moving images. Do you also post on Flickr, Instagram ? That might be a place for your work too. And of course, why not trying to film ?


Do not doubt about your work ! It's better than many, many, many people out there, and you're only beginning (in video, not in photo).

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Going down the youtube drain 12 Sep 2015 05:55 #68351

last years statistics:
every minute, 300 HOURS of video get uploaded to YT.

Googling for Tibooburra << learned of its existence in my 56y of life just minutes ago:


199.ooo hits .... okayyyyy, a booming city on the other side of our galaxy … (??)

ok ... googling for Tibooburra videos ("Who the heck is filming in Tibu… Baaboo… that tiny town??")

1,700 .... no way!! Really???
Haystack.. needle .... :whistle:

If you want to score on YT, you need to use a battallion of 'networking' tools, crisscross around the web. Just by 'nice pictures'… no way. Sorry to say.

… but do you care? Perhaps there are two or three persons on this globe who love your work - and you do it for them!
sheer numbers are for the white collar guys in some office.
make your movies for yourself and your friends (the charming lady, your wife? for her!) …
____________

open for some technical advice/critiques?
Some very impressive pics, some are crooked … :lol:

You got me in the beginning with, what I thought, could evolve to a great story "… but it never rains in Teeboo, … Tabu… that town. But when it rains…" .... wow, yes, what happens here when it rains in the town without rain???" ....

You never answer that question.
harsh words ahead: just tourists impressions, a shop, a dry road, a Marlboro Man, a kangeroo ....
The beginning is sooo good! Cinematic! really .....
stills plus audio plus those flash-transitions - excellent! But then ...

I'm not a 100% with manoucho, 'Movie' doesn't necessarily means 'movin' pictures' - stills plus an audiotrack 'moves' me too .... ;)

What you learn in the first hours of editing is "Kill your darlings" - when … that-tiny-town-with-the-name-I'm-incapable-to-remember gets wet, then...? Wot? Everybody gets happy (keep happy wife, kill unhappy cowboy)? Or, the rain let roos appear (it doesn't - kill kangeroos)? ... I'n in an area where rain is nothing special, so what is YOUR speciality? ....

Tell me the story of …<German curse> … and I will learn its name! Promised!

keep making movies!
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Going down the youtube drain 12 Sep 2015 06:26 #68353

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manoucho wrote: not doubt about your work ! It's better than many, many, many people out there, and you're only beginning (in video, not in photo).


Manoucho .... If I was to say anything less than you made my day I would be telling a base lie. Thank you so much!!!

manoucho wrote: Quick advice: do not waste time with logos, titles, etc in the beginning. It takes too long before the real video starts.

Personally, I would prefer seeing your pictures full frame, without animation. I can enjoy the framing, take my time... By doing diaporamas you might not use all the potential of video, which is mainly used for moving images. Do you also post on Flickr, Instagram ? That might be a place for your work too. And of course, why not trying to film ?


Both points noted and taken. I will cut the text intros and leave off the extended 'zoom outs'.

The reason I don't use much video, as opposed to stills, is that my ability to control the shot is poor. I don't have any excess equip, nor can I pose a scene, nor can I hold the camera still, or pan, or zoom, while film is running. I have not used Vimeo (cuz I think you need your own music, and not others). Will look at Instagram and Flickr, but have never see seen or used them. I had to look up the word 'diaporama' ... a great word.

Do you think it is OK to insert some text after the opening in order to put the viewer somewhat into the picture? I have two projects/concepts in my mind but have not been game to start them ... but now at least you have given me an opening.

Mate, I really appreciate your reply. Thank you for taking the time.

Greg

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Going down the youtube drain 12 Sep 2015 06:42 #68354

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Karsten Schlüter wrote: last years statistics:

If you want to score on YT, you need to use a battallion of 'networking' tools, crisscross around the web. Just by 'nice pictures'… no way. Sorry to say.

… but do you care? Perhaps there are two or three persons on this globe who love your work - and you do it for them!
sheer numbers are for the white collar guys in some office. Make your movies for yourself and your friends (the charming lady, your wife? for her!) …



Hi Karsten, you have given me good advice before when I first joined. No, I don't really care, I would just like a wider audience ... probably just vanity.

Karsten Schlüter wrote: open for some technical advice/critiques?
Some very impressive pics, some are crooked … :lol:

You got me in the beginning with, what I thought, could evolve to a great story "… but it never rains in Teeboo, … Tabu… that town. But when it rains…" .... wow, yes, what happens here when it rains in the town without rain???" ....

You never answer that question.
harsh words ahead: just tourists impressions, a shop, a dry road, a Marlboro Man, a kangeroo ....
The beginning is sooo good! Cinematic! really .....
stills plus audio plus those flash-transitions - excellent! But then ...



Yes, it is confusing when put like that. And your right, the opening does make the rest an anti-climax.

Tibooburra is 330 kilometres from the nearest 'city', and that 'city' has only 19,000. All roads out there are dirt roads, no bitumen/tarmac. It is illegal to drive on these roads after rain. The fine/punishment can be thousands of dollars per wheel for doing so. Automobiles are fined for four wheels, with a caravan then six wheels. Trucks, pulling three trailers (thirty or forty wheels) can reach hundreds of thousands of dollars.

It is illegal because you damage the wet roads and leave ruts, which then have to be graded out when dry. It costs a lot of money to send a road crew and equipment 300 kilometres into the desert, and it's all your cost if your caught.

So when it rains ... they close the roads. So no matter your plans, you stay in the spot your in until they dry. In this case, Tibooburra, for three days. I had nothing else to do but take photos. I was only passing thru when it rained.

That's what happens after it rains.

Karsten Schlüter wrote: I'm not a 100% with manoucho, 'Movie' doesn't necessarily means 'movin' pictures' - stills plus an audiotrack 'moves' me too .... ;)

What you learn in the first hours of editing is "Kill your darlings" - when … that-tiny-town-with-the-name-I'm-incapable-to-remember gets wet, then...? Wot? Everybody gets happy (keep happy wife, kill unhappy cowboy)? Or, the rain let roos appear (it doesn't - kill kangeroos)? ... I'n in an area where rain is nothing special, so what is YOUR speciality? ....

Tell me the story of …<German curse> … and I will learn its name! Promised!

keep making movies!


heheeee .... yes, I will keep making movies. Your points about most of the vid becoming 'snapshots' after the opening is good. I just re-watched it. It helps so much when someone else points out something that I am too vain and proud to see by myself.

Thanks heaps Karsten.

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Going down the youtube drain 12 Sep 2015 07:09 #68356

good, you share my humor… some people take me too serious, and there's loss due to translation...

you said ...
I just re-watched it.


Aside learning from the masters and watching them, I find it helpful to watch my own stuff with some distance. My last years Opus Maximus, the obligatory wedding movie, was, when delivered and in all honesty, "plain phantastic". Watched it (the long version), with half a year distance lately .... oo, oooh! :S Not that good ... friendly said.

And: trust your photos! Don't hurry, give them time to affect. And stop this causeless pan'n zoom!! Help your watchers to focus ("... aah, almost missed it - Skippy!"), or put details in context (these shoes belong toooooo....).

Recommendation from my Box of Eye-Candy:
fade-to-black => let pic sequences 'breath' ....
transition same pic from 4c to b/w, or vice versa => can give 'drama' ...

and develope your style "stills with movie tone" .... that's unique! ... naw, not really... somehow!

greetings to downunder! :)

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Going down the youtube drain 12 Sep 2015 10:53 #68359

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Yes, I get it. And I rewatched it again after reading your post. I see it.

Thank you, and greetings to you too, mate

Greg :)

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Going down the youtube drain 12 Sep 2015 15:48 #68372

Greg

Do you think it is OK to insert some text after the opening in order to put the viewer somewhat into the picture? I have two projects/concepts in my mind but have not been game to start them ... but now at least you have given me an opening.


Yes why not. And even before... if you catch our attention.

When I read your story about that place I'm like "wow, I never heard anything similar before". Why doesn't it appear in a structured way in the film ?

For filming moving images: it's also about the content. A wonderful still picture could be extremely boring in a video. It's different magic, but you could experiment. A good way to start is to use a monopod. If it doesn't move too much you can stabilize it in post.

Finally, the best gift I have ever received in my life: my ex-girlfriend printed it and displayed it in my room so I could see it everyday:

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Going down the youtube drain 13 Sep 2015 20:46 #68418

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Hi Manoucho,

Thank you for the advice, and the poster. I've put it on the desktop. It's good advice.

I'm going to start a new project and see if I can put all this advice together.

Greg

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VidGreg 14 Sep 2015 16:40 #68479

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Good day Greg
Thought I'd throw in my 2 cents worth of opinion.
I agree with Manoucho about the opening titles, make them very short.
While I think adding motion to photos can add drama, overusing it decreases the dramatic effect. Less is more!
Also I agree with Karsten and Manoucho, you take some great photos, but the constant motion does not allow us to take in all the details. Focus in on the most important photo area. Let's us savor them.

You say this is a "short" video, but in reality, this is more of medium video for YouTube. There are far more folks willing to watch a video at 3 minutes or less than to open a 5 minute or longer video. That may be playing a role in viewed stats for your other vids.
You need to build up a following with many short videos, then if folks like your work, they might watch longer vids. One possible exercise would be to time your videos to one song (there are lots of free or creative commons songs you can use without violating copy rite). Songs are typically around 3 minutes. Do some 1-2 minute vids too.

I mostly watched your Ayutthaya video, but found the cuts way too fast to watch it all and I shut off ~ 8 minutes. Sorry, I really wanted to watch to understand your work. I saw lots of photos I wanted to see details in, but no point in continuing if I couldn't enjoy the lovely photos. Again, I was hesitant to load a 9 minute video. What's that say about society, and I watch lots of vids.
You say you don't do much video work, but Ayutthaya had many video clips, many with either a fisheye lens or GoPro camera. It was nice work. The 5D can take some great video, but get a tripod.
Couldn't read the very small grey type on black in opening sequence. This is on a 15" rMBP full screen. Old eyes, take pity :(

I always try to have several outside people critique my work before it is delivered. Helps to hear comments.
I think you are developing an interesting style.
I actually wanted to know the stories of many of the people you photographed. You have a great eye for characters.
Thanks Manoucho for the poster, good inspiration.

Keep up the good work, happy editing :)
Hope this helps, Greg

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VidGreg 15 Sep 2015 00:57 #68500

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VidGreg wrote: Good day Greg
Thought I'd throw in my 2 cents worth of opinion.
I agree with Manoucho about the opening titles, make them very short.


Hi mate,

Ta for taking the time to reply. I have started a new video. I have taken Manoucho's advice and eliminated most of it.

VidGreg wrote: Also I agree with Karsten and Manoucho, you take some great photos, but the constant motion does not allow us to take in all the details. Focus in on the most important photo area. Let's us savor them.


Thanx for kind words re photography. I'm not a photographer. Some photos are good, but hundreds curl up on the cutting room floor ..heheee.

VidGreg wrote: You say this is a "short" video, but in reality, this is more of medium video for YouTube. There are far more folks willing to watch a video at 3 minutes or less than to open a 5 minute or longer video. That may be playing a role in viewed stats for your other vids.


I have thought about this, and there is no doubt your right. But .. I have also thought about what Karsten and Manoucho said. The truth is that I have no real reason to build up 'view' numbers on youtube.

I may be wrong, most probably am, but I have decided to not reduce the length, or rather, to not set a length. It's complicated, but the length sorta gets determined as I go along. ummmm ... I'm probably not explaining myself very well, but if I started with a set length I feel that I am meeting a commercial need rather than a creative one. Don't get me wrong, I don't have tickets on myself as a creative person, but I just wouldn't like working to a set length.

However I do admit that building to a set length is a good discipline to practice, and the audience has to be considered. But I don't do this for a living, just for fun, so it's not so critical.

VidGreg wrote: I mostly watched your Ayutthaya video, but found the cuts way too fast to watch it all and I shut off ~ 8 minutes. Sorry, I really wanted to watch to understand your work. I saw lots of photos I wanted to see details in, but no point in continuing if I couldn't enjoy the lovely photos. Again, I was hesitant to load a 9 minute video. What's that say about society, and I watch lots of vids.
You say you don't do much video work, but Ayutthaya had many video clips, many with either a fisheye lens or GoPro camera. It was nice work. The 5D can take some great video, but get a tripod.
Couldn't read the very small grey type on black in opening sequence. This is on a 15" rMBP full screen. Old eyes, take pity :(



True, true, all true. I have rewatched everything and I have to agree. I don't know how I got so far off track. But posting here has proved an eye-opener and hopefully, a new direction.

VidGreg wrote: I always try to have several outside people critique my work before it is delivered. Helps to hear comments.


Yeah, but for me, that means family or friends ... and they have to be forced to watch at the point of a gun ... heheee. It's very hard to get objective views for an amateur.

VidGreg wrote: Keep up the good work, happy editing :)
Hope this helps, Greg


Thank you again. I have started anew vid, and it's in accordance with what I have learnt here. I don't know about others, but for me a vid is 5% FCPX and 95% in my head. So it takes me a long long time to put one together.

The video I'm making now I can't cut any shorter and still feel good about it. But hopefully it will be a huge improvement over the others.

I will post it here first. And hopefully you guys will still be around in a month or two to 'edit' it for me. I know you guys are mostly professionals, so my thanx is all the more for your patience and time as well.

Greg

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Last edit: by Grendel.

VidGreg 08 Dec 2015 23:53 #71274

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Hi peoples,

Ok, I took all that advice on board as best I could. This is the latest one, it's overlong but I had to get Zanci Station and Mungo Station into it.

If any of you guys are still around reading this then I would love criticism of it. Apart from the length I have tried my best to 'tone down' movement, quick changes, etc.



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Last edit: by Grendel.

VidGreg 11 Dec 2015 18:34 #71365

Grendel

It's much better already. Strong ambient, and interesting story in the beginning. Very cool, you're progressing :)

The pictures are really good but we saw that last time already.

- The subtitles are hard to read.
- It's way way way too long. Nobody will watch pictures during 8 minutes.

It is part of your art to make an editorial choice of your work. You love them all, but you've got to select the best only. You have to make many sacrifices to reach an interesting captivating intense result.

If not, the viewer will do it for you: he will stop in the middle.

My 2 cents.

Yet, congratulations !

Hugs,
Manu

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Last edit: by manoucho.

Going down the youtube drain 12 Dec 2015 08:31 #71379

and the results from the German jury ...... :

awesome pics, I like the music (The English Patient, am I right?) - and too long. :lol:

A few questions:
after 6min, music ends, fade out - and to my surprise, another movie about an abondend church starts ... two for price of one? ;)
any reason, why you change fonts in your subtitles...?
have you considered to 'bundle' a few comments? would give the whole thing a lil' speed push.
have you tried (much) smaller movements .... ? Or, no KB at all for a few pics?
Do all pics have the same length? It feels like...
Can you structure your slideshow a lil' more? for instance a fade2black (or white), a title, then a new pic. Those 'pauses' give your audience a chance to rest and 'process' all those impressions. When you change gears, showing the old houses/he b/w sequence....
you heard of the Rule Of Nine (or was it Three??) :




... never 'center' pictures; put the 'weight' onto the 4 crosspoints ...
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Going down the youtube drain 12 Dec 2015 15:52 #71383

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"Rule Of Thirds"

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VidGreg 13 Dec 2015 01:24 #71399

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manoucho wrote: - It's way way way too long. Nobody will watch pictures during 8 minutes.

It is part of your art to make an editorial choice of your work. You love them all, but you've got to select the best only. You have to make many sacrifices to reach an interesting captivating intense result.

Manu


Ta Manu for compliments.

I am no longer trying to make a splash on youtube ... heheee. There seems to be no rhyme or reason to what is popular on youtube.

So, if I am just trying to make a video that is interesting, then is 8 minutes still too long?

Thanx for your critique. My next one will be 3-4 minutes.

Greg

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Going down the youtube drain 13 Dec 2015 01:56 #71400

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Karsten Schlüter wrote: and the results from the German jury ......


Heheee ... glad you replied.


Karsten Schlüter wrote: awesome pics, I like the music (The English Patient, am I right?) - and too long. :lol: A few questions:
after 6min, music ends, fade out - and to my surprise, another movie about an abondend church starts ... two for price of one? ;)




The music is Lisa Gerrerd and she may have done the music for the English Patient. I'm unsure.

The area, Lake Mungo, was once occupied for over 50,000 years. Around 100-130 years ago the first white settlers arrived. Two Large Sheep stations eventually formed out of all the little holdings. Zanci Station and Mungo Station. They felled the Cyprus forests in order to build the wool sheds and stables and houses etc. They got a few good years of good wool clips. But the land was marginal and with the removal of the forests it desertified and eroded away. It could no longer support anything. And so in just a few years it was destroyed forever by the whitefella. The total value from the wool clip was only a few million pounds at the time.

Mungo Station and Zanci station were the prime cause of the land being destroyed. Thats why to your surprise the video contains two 'churches'.

What's not in the video is that the oldest burial in the world is located there, a chief or a great man, covered in red ochre (nearly 50,000 years old). A woman is also buried, the worlds first cremation.

WIKI wrote: The Lake Mungo remains are three prominent sets of bodies: Lake Mungo 1 (also called Mungo Lady, LM1, and ANU-618), Lake Mungo 3 (also called Mungo Man, Lake Mungo III, and LM3), and Lake Mungo 2 (LM2). Lake Mungo is in New South Wales, Australia, specifically the World Heritage listed Willandra Lakes Region.[1][2]

LM1 was discovered in 1969 and is one of the world's oldest known cremations.[1][3] LM3, discovered in 1974, was an early human inhabitant of the continent of Australia, who is believed to have lived between 40,000 and 68,000 years ago, during the Pleistocene epoch. The remains are the oldest anatomically modern human remains found in Australia to date. His exact age is a matter of ongoing dispute.


Also the Mungo-Excursion

Also, if you look very closely many of the pictures contain stone tools. The ground is littered with stone tools. It's hard to try and get the whole story into a video with hardly any subtitles ... :(

Karsten Schlüter wrote: any reason, why you change fonts in your subtitles...?




No, just poor editing.


Karsten Schlüter wrote: have you considered to 'bundle' a few comments? would give the whole thing a lil' speed push.




In the first one I put all the title and storyline at the front (bundled) but that received criticism. So this time I tried to spread the subtitles out a bit?


Karsten Schlüter wrote: have you tried (much) smaller movements .... ? Or, no KB at all for a few pics?
Do all pics have the same length? It feels like...
Can you structure your slideshow a lil' more? for instance a fade2black (or white), a title, then a new pic. Those 'pauses' give your audience a chance to rest and 'process' all those impressions. When you change gears, showing the old houses/he b/w sequence....
you heard of the Rule Of Nine (or was it Three??) :




... never 'center' pictures; put the 'weight' onto the 4 crosspoints ...



Yes, I will try all this for the next one.


Both yourself and Ben B have pointed out the rule of thirds. I'm not a photographer but I do know about it. Is it a strict rule that must not be broken? In the example you have pasted it's true that Suzy is in the middle of the pic, but the dune rises to her right and falls away to her left. which to me is the main focus. I ... ummmm ... tend to break the rule of thirds quite a lot, using it only loosely as a guide.

Is this a serious problem and should I be very strict in applying it? I am quite happy to ignore it, as it doesn't always seem to improve the crop ... What I mean is, should it be applied to every photo simply because it's a heuristic and thats what we do because we're obedient ?

Much appreciated Kirsten and Ben B and Manu.

Greg

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Last edit: by Grendel.

Going down the youtube drain 13 Dec 2015 07:18 #71402

… Is it a strict rule that must not be broken?…


na, for sure not! rules are there to be broken .... :woohoo:

but I'm noticing, most of your pics are 'centered'. For a few pics - why not. But not most. I once made for school a presentation "what is a good photo/are there impartial criteria making a photo 'nice'?"

I switch it on for a few days 'public' >> click << (I'm publishing pics I'm not allowed to publish... so in a few days, the link will be broken)

lots of German brabrabra, summary is:
a good pic catches the viewers attention - by content and/or making
a good pic 'guides' the watcher - by colors/contrasts, shapes/lines, harmonics/breaking the rules, finally 'weighting' the pic ....

Thats not my wisdom, just a summary of others insight

flip thru the pages, in the beginning I'm showing lots of 'good' pictures .... well known, very different - so, what do they all have in common?
as with any presentation, a lot of blabla belongs to each chart, but I guess you catch the idea.

and please: more movies! I will never have the chance to visit this places, but a) watching them is awesome, and b) it's always a diff. story to talk to someone who IS/was actually there ...........

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Going down the youtube drain 13 Dec 2015 14:03 #71406

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Here's what I tell my students. Follow the basic rules, they are there for a reason, other long time pros over many decades have discovered these work. That said, you can break them. But how do you know when it is appropriate? Break a rule, sit back and ask yourself, "what information does that give the audience, that they don't already have about the story I'm telling?" This goes for coloring, effects, transitions, and every edit in a project. Even if you follow the rules, you should be asking yourself that question constantly during post-production.

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Going down the youtube drain 13 Dec 2015 22:17 #71418

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Thanks for the feedback guys. I went thru your pp presentation Karsten. I don't read German but I do get the message of the pics.

BenB. Thanx Ben. I look on each still as an information packet. The next video is only going to be a short one.

Please hang around peoples. I need the advice.

Greg

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Going down the youtube drain 31 Dec 2015 03:43 #71842

Hi Grendel,

I just discovered this discussion and was intrigued by the comments so thought I'd jump in too. Having watched your Lake Mungo Revisited video I'll add my observations if you don't mind. By way of background, I too am a beginner and a hobbyist

The overall impression Lake Mungo left me with was positive: good strong images and appropriate music. Like Manoucho, Karsten and Ben have mentioned I agree it was too long. I know it's tough to edit something that's obviously made a real impression on you but sometimes it's necessary to 'kill your darlings'.

You could try a short version and keep the long version that feels complete to you. In the short version, ask yourself with every clip "does this image help tell the story?" If the answer isn't a strong yes perhaps because the image already has its information covered in a previous shot leave it out. The result of this approach will be to shorten and tighten up your film.

Early on you use subtitles to set up the background story. Since there is quite a lot to say about this location consider using a voice over. Reading subtitles takes attention away from the effectiveness of your film.

A few specifics. First, too much Ken Burns. With so much zooming in and out and panning around your images I was getting dizzy. Unless the effect to reveals something specific to enhance your story I'd leave it out. Your images are strong enough that they don't need, or benefit from, moving around.

Using the rule of thirds has been mentioned before and that's good advice. In situations where you have a person or animal in the frame and they aren't looking at or moving toward the camera it's usually best to position them to give them room to look or move into. Applying the rule of thirds they'd typically have ⅔ of the image ahead of them. If you position them so their attention is focussed out of frame you make me want to see what's out there. I saw this effect in some of your images but then you left me hanging when you didn't show me what was there.

Be careful of zooming in too much and degrading your image quality. Unless the particular image is really crucial for your story it's best not to do that. Similarly, when the quality of your images is high as yours are, out of focus images are best relegated to the cutting room floor. For example, the black and yellow lizard in someone's hand are fuzzy. Since you aren't telling the story of catching the local fauna I'd leave those out.

The abandoned buildings, particularly the B&W images, are interesting but would be better as a separate film or so it seems to me. The juxtaposition with the rest of the film didn't seem logical. To me it seemed like you have 2 films here as it did to Karsten.

A question about your ending. Why was there a colour change and the mirage (wavy) effect on the Suzy clip? It was an interesting effect and I liked it but it didn't tie into the rest of film for me.

So, I liked this film and think with some tough editing you'll have a more appealing and impactful video. Maybe you'll even get the numbers you were hoping for on You Tube. Keep in mind the old adage: leave them wanting more.

Good grief - I didn't intend to carry on babbling this long! Just my opinions - I hope they're of some use to you.
Ed

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