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TOPIC: Simon Ubsdell's SuperSearchField... Universal Smart Collection

Simon Ubsdall's SuperSearchField... Universal Smart Collection 16 May 2016 20:35 #76807

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I'll chime in with my 2 cents later (actually working now... weird!) But I see both sides of this. The short version is... It's not perfect, and really needs a Library built with this technique in mind. The search HUD is genius, but needs to work across Libraries and be able to Hide/Show via KB. In a complex Library it's not faster, though if this functionality was built in, it probably could be. It's is way faster when using it in, for example, a dedicated SFX Library when building effects beds. Having all collections and search field hovering in one place lets you focus...





As a concept, I agree with Simon. This is how it NLE's should work. Does it work now? kinda sorta not really yes depending on certain conditions. ;-)

More Later....
Can't sleep? Try this: fcpxpert.net ;-)
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Simon Ubsdell's SuperSearchField... Universal Smart Collection 17 May 2016 03:59 #76815

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@Simon

Thank you, Simon, for chiming in, and spending time in demoeing your thoughts!
I'm still excited about the underlying concept of your Supersearch ... better: SuperFind field ;)

What you call 'containers', I calll for some time 'drawers' - you can put an item only in one drawer; but meta or tags are way more powerful... ok, no new news for FCPX veterans like Ben, but … anyhow!

We have to admit:
this discussion is more than 15y old - "iTunes killed my manually built, 40.ooo folders collections!" ... rings a bell, hm? ;) iTunes was - in my rememberance - the first meta-data driven media-tool ...
The old way was (and for some still is) "Yellow Submarine" - in what drawer/folder do I have to search, "Pop60ies", "Red Album", "Blue Album"? ..... with meta/tags, it doesn't matter WHERE it is categorized, just HOW ....

And that is a weak spot, imho, in that concept: no name no find.
Or, vice versa:
it asks for disciplined tagging, music was easy=automatic (gracenote?), with video.... hm.

Another argument could be:
"why typing 2,3,4,5x 'Photo', when a single click on a done-once SC 'photo' does the same?"
Imho, your idea of MasterSmartCollection isn't meant to replace 'my clutter of post-its', but to demo the power of combining not only tech-tags (e.g. creation date) but flexible, own search find criteria.

... hard to express in a foreign language, ... but: great!


And one day, I'll learn to spell your name correctly, Simon! ;)

....

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Simon Ubsdall's SuperSearchField... Universal Smart Collection 17 May 2016 04:48 #76817

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Some quick thoughts as I am playing around with this concept:

- I think it's a brilliant concept that deserves further investigation. Of course it does not replace the need for organizing your assets prior to editing, it actually encourages you to do this even more so you can use this search method to its full extent.

- I am totally in favor of simplified and sleek user interfaces like FCP X has, as opposed to the cluttered and counter-productive windows in Avid, Resolve or Premier. So if this idea allows me to easily search for my assets without even needing to open my Library pane, I cannot be against it.

- With its dynamic Keyword and Smart Collections, FCP X has without any doubt the best media organizing features on the NLE market. This quick search method based on a universal Smart Collection simply takes this advantage one step further again.

- Ronny

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Simon Ubsdell's SuperSearchField... Universal Smart Collection 17 May 2016 06:44 #76819

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I have long held the belief that genius of the metadata foundation of FCPX and Apple's MacOS direction points to natural language voice search assistant one day.

I'm sure FCPX will get auto transcription and along with all automatically generated metadata from the camera or user generated metadata will just form a searchable pool of data and it will be seen as completely normal to do a siri search to select material. 'Siri, find all my 4k handheld footage from last week's shoot that I rated 4 or above...' 'Siri, automatically add the Effect Preset 709 to all Log clips in the last search..'

I think Simon's Super Search Field is a tangible stepping stone towards the Pro Apps team's ultimate goal. I'm already barking orders at my AppleTV to find films to watch on iTunes and Netflix so it's really not a huge leap to expect this in FCPX sooner rather than later..

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Simon Ubsdell's SuperSearchField... Universal Smart Collection 17 May 2016 07:18 #76820

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Unfenswinger wrote: … a siri search to select material. 'Siri, find all my 4k handheld footage from last week's shoot that I rated 4 or above...' 'Siri, automatically add the Effect Preset 709 to all Log clips in the last search..' …..


these examples search for 'tech tags'.

What probably needs more advance in AI would be content tags, from (tech too) "show me all clips with a pan from left to right', to "all clips with the bride dancing" , up to "a clip where Tom walks faster thru the door" ...

And I'd call my assistent in FCPX 'Fini', not Siri, otherwise my iPad get confused .. LOL!!!!

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Simon Ubsdell's SuperSearchField... Universal Smart Collection 17 May 2016 07:38 #76821

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There will be a balance to be drawn between the ease of being able to determine content and the user being able to add their own tags but things like camera motion and shot size are already easily determined.

'Siri, range select the moment the Bride's mother got so pi$$ed she fell off her chair spilling wine over herself...tag that highlights...tag 5 stars' Already the wedding videographers are seeing the future...

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Simon Ubsdall's SuperSearchField... Universal Smart Collection 17 May 2016 07:44 #76822

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BenB wrote: Realistically, if you don't have a post team with assistant editors to keyword, rename, etc, everything for you, then you're obviously not doing projects that large. This technique would never survive the TV show I'm working on now. Way too much, we need to search dialog that is in the notes fields, and this won't do that. Because we don't attach that metadata anywhere. And if we do, then this technique is not doing anything different. Not sure how this technique would find all my B-Roll from a snowmobile tour, as opposed to my B-Roll from a whitewater rafting tour, as opposed to an interview clip. Not sure how that'd be done without keyword collections. Oh, but he does that, in the Finder, EXACTLY like in the Browser.

It is an interesting trick, but it is only a parlor trick, not productive without tagging metadata that ends up as keywords. So I open this Master Search smart collection. I have to uncheck keyword collection I've previously checked, check the ones I want to search, and then I see what I want to see. Or, I just click once on the Keyword Collection normally. Not seeing it.

Again, I'm playing with this on my system, also. Nice concept, but having to make keyword collections, using metadata, it is all still necessary to input that. No difference is being made. I don't get how this is different. I so see it making things MORE complicated and taking MORE time to achieve.

I don't discuss FCPX with other NLE users unless they're at an FCPX event, or specifically ask me something. I don't have time for the flame wars anymore.


Why so dismissive and critical Ben? All Simon is trying to do is pass on some tips and tricks that people 'may' find helpful/useful in their workflow. It won't work for everyone but I personally think it's got legs.

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Simon Ubsdell's SuperSearchField... Universal Smart Collection 17 May 2016 07:46 #76823

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the term 'wedding' is still an excellent working bait to trigger reactions! :whistle:

conc. content tags:
the Magic Keywording, Philip H. presented at NAB within the Lumberjack suit of apps goes in that direction....

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Simon Ubsdell's SuperSearchField... Universal Smart Collection 17 May 2016 08:09 #76825

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Karsten Schlüter wrote:
conc. content tags:
the Magic Keywording, Philip H. presented at NAB within the Lumberjack suit of apps goes in that direction....


Ah, yes. That's what I was thinking too when I said the ease of the user adding the tag. I thought you meant the computer being able to determine content which is another interesting area of development.

The next few years are going to be interesting as all the disparate strands of development are woven together.

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Simon Ubsdell's SuperSearchField... Universal Smart Collection 17 May 2016 08:27 #76826

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Unfenswinger wrote: ...thought you meant the computer being able to determine content which is another interesting area of development...


that's what I meant initially, indeed. :)
But my hopes in machine-created-content discriptions are low.
Lumberjacks Magic Keyword is a mixture - man typed/'discribed', machine filtered/counted ...

Although, the hit-rate of iPhoto/Faces years ago (!) really kicked my off my chair...!
maybe, this is the next step:
you teach the machine, 'woman in white dress'=bride, then it tracks down and labels all frames with that (hum, well, you could 'abuse' the face recognition for that ....)

and when the manual of my cam doesn't lie, never tried, that piece of metal does know when my subjects smile...

.......... a bit spookey, when you think about it in detail...... :S

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Simon Ubsdall's SuperSearchField... Universal Smart Collection 17 May 2016 12:55 #76832

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"Remember how long it took you to get your head around the basics concepts of FCP X when they first came along?"
Yeah, like 2 minutes. That was the beauty of it originally.

"Why so dismissive and critical Ben?"
Because Karsten asked for opinions, and I gave mine, honestly and as I see it, as asked. Really? I could equally ask, "Why so conformist, dude?" But that gets us nowhere. A discussion is not the same as a pep-rally for a single, un-challanged idea.

Either way, you're still entering Keywords, and Simon states that is outdated. But he STILL does it in his "groundbreaking" workflow. I'm simply pointing out, when asked to, the contradiction in this technique. So what? Attack the guy with the differing opinion? That's really productive...

At least I'm responding to actually DOING this, and how I'm finding it to work in my REAL WOLD scenarios, not some fantasy.

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Last edit: by BenB.

Simon Ubsdall's SuperSearchField... Universal Smart Collection 17 May 2016 13:18 #76836

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BenB wrote: "But he STILL does it in his "groundbreaking" workflow. I'm simply pointing out, when asked to, the contradiction in this technique. So what? Attack the guy with the differing opinion? That's really productive...


It's not your difference of opinion that is the issue here Ben, it's the tone in which you sometimes choose to communicate that opinion by dismissing other people's opinions or suggestions as folly because it's not for you.

Simon has shared something in good faith and even gone to the lengths of making a 10 minute video to further demonstrate it in the event that it might be helpful. He gains nothing by doing this, he just wants to contribute.

If it's not for you, that's fine ... but there's no need to then suggest Simon is talking out of his backside is there?

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Last edit: by damiangrady.

Simon Ubsdall's SuperSearchField... Universal Smart Collection 17 May 2016 15:43 #76840

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OK folks, it might be a good idea, it might be a bad idea, but there is no room on this board for having a go at other people.

Everybody, please keep it to the point or I'll lock this rather interesting thread.

Peter
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Simon Ubsdell's SuperSearchField... Universal Smart Collection 17 May 2016 19:04 #76848

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I've watched Simon's video and it's an interesting take on using Smart Collections. I share his endorsement of the fact that the Filter window is a floating panel, which can be useful - especially in multi-screen configurations

The one huge drawback that I can see for this technique (and it's more an indictment of FCPX than Simon's workflow) is the way Apple handles Keywords in the filter. If you have a large number of Keywords in your Library for whatever reason, it can get very difficult to turn on/off groups of keywords. I know that typically you would just be turning on/off single Keywords for most filtering, but if you get into a situation where you're using multiple Keywords when filtering clips, you end up having to do a lot of niggly checkbox clicking. This is of course alleviated to some extent with the Check All / Check None drop-down, but not entirely.

Tangentially, it would be great if there were a way to include Keyword values in the Text field in the Filter window (and/or text search in Keyword section itself). I've been asking Apple for this for years.

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Simon Ubsdell's SuperSearchField... Universal Smart Collection 17 May 2016 19:25 #76849

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Your point about Keywords is a good one - the current implementation is not ideal in terms of the Filter pane. But the Text field specifically is a field that interrogates a string in the filename so wouldn't be reassignable in the way you suggest. However, a Keyword text search option in the the keyword section would be an improvement.

I wanted to add a couple of points here in my defence, if I may.

I totally take the point that as things stand this method is sub-optimal. The Smart Collection tool is truly awesome, but it's not yet ideal for this purpose. I think if Apple thought there was mileage in this concept, then I could see ways that it could be implemented successfully, but at the moment this suggestion is more theoretical than practical.

I also wanted to make it very clear that in publishing this video I had absolutely no intention of telling experienced editors how to use FCP X - I hate it when people tell me how I should be working so I know exactly how that feels!

Nor do I make any claims about the originality of this idea. This option has been there in FCP X since the first day and I'm not pretending to have discovered anything new or ground-breaking.

What I did think was that it was an interesting way of asking the question as to what kind of media organisation you want and/or need, or could contemplate for the future.

Specifically, will it always be the case that we are dumping our material into containers, or will there come a time when we can leverage the power of metadata to a greater degree and start using something a bit more like this model?

For my part, since I started to think about this method, I have had some useful thoughts about streamlining my own media organisation into something leaner and more fit for purpose. My small hope is that some of you might find it similarly useful.

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Last edit: by Simon Ubsdell.

Simon Ubsdell's SuperSearchField... Universal Smart Collection 17 May 2016 20:04 #76850

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After watching Simon's video I feel this approach is perfectly valid.

Whether it's by Simon or someone else, I can see this idea being expanded into something very useful.

Think different....

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Simon Ubsdall's SuperSearchField... Universal Smart Collection 17 May 2016 20:32 #76851

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Simon Ubsdell wrote: Remember how long it took you to get your head around the basics concepts of FCP X when they first came along?

BenB wrote: Yeah, like 2 minutes. That was the beauty of it originally.


Ben allow me a little smile on my face reading your reply.

Anyway, as Ronny said the beauty of FCPX is the simplicity of the UI and that's very good and way better that than those of competitors. The keyword and smart collection is the most flexible way to organize media at this time. But as stated here several times it still needs a lot of typing. And things like audio transcription, Siri things are still miles away not to talked about non English content and users. (if I'm in bad mood I talk to Siri in German - after a few minutes I feel better)

But in my opinion there is not enough education about metadata and "where to find them" and their type.
Also the engineers at Apple seem to have some lacks there in my opinion.

Just a simple example: old FCP (definitively not a king of metadata) accepted scene/take/note metadata across different machines and the internet. FCPX ignores those.
There Spotlight metadata in files which are not permanent, there are embedded fix metadata, but only some of them are used, others can be used when the user teaches FCPX how to use them, but these require to set up FCPX on every machine on a non local workgroup. For some others I haven't found any way to get them into X.

Lot of room there to improve.

- Andreas

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Simon Ubsdall's SuperSearchField... Universal Smart Collection 18 May 2016 04:25 #76862

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I've been thinking of this balance between the Metadata world and the Bin/Folder/Container world for a few years. For me personally, I need to live in both worlds. The Metadata approach is great in principle, but it assumes one very important thing…that EVERYTHING you have has properly assigned metadata. That's just not realistic for me.

This is why folders/bins are so appealing. You can be lazy when want to be. They can hold your stuff until you have time to deal with it. Some of my projects require diligent metadata organization. Others require almost none at all. I like the flexibility of that. And while it would be nice to have everything "metadata-ed", I just don't have time for that. I do what I need to do and move on. Everybody's different and different workflows, jobs, teams, etc. can run differently.

As OS X started integrating more of a metadata approach at the OS level (tags, spotlight info, etc.) I thought I would adapt to more of that philosophy, but the truth is that I need both. There are many times (most?) where it's simply faster to go to that folder that you know for a fact has the files you need, rather than opening a search dialog and clicking/typing things in hopes you find what you need. That's my reality anyway.

Having said that, I think a lesson to be reminded of is the importance of metadata and how it can save you a lot of effort in the long run, however you decide to leverage it.

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Simon Ubsdell's SuperSearchField... Universal Smart Collection 18 May 2016 06:34 #76868

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Hi All

I watched the video as well and find it pretty sound.
Not sure if i would really like to work like this personally.
I am teaching some Premiere editors about FCPX the next couple of days.
And I think i will include this in my course just to show how far you can take the Meta Data Logic.
Here is a mad idea off the top of my head.
In days gone by we had a Console/Controller for e.g. Lightworks.
Imagine if there was a Meta Data controller for The Mother of all Smart Collections or what ever you want to call this concept. :woohoo:

all the best

Paul

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Last edit: by paurray.

Simon Ubsdall's SuperSearchField... Universal Smart Collection 18 May 2016 07:10 #76871

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mindbend wrote: I've been thinking of this balance between the Metadata world and the Bin/Folder/Container world for a few years. For me personally, I need to live in both worlds. The Metadata approach is great in principle, but it assumes one very important thing…that EVERYTHING you have has properly assigned metadata. That's just not realistic for me.

This is why folders/bins are so appealing. You can be lazy when want to be. They can hold your stuff until you have time to deal with it. Some of my projects require diligent metadata organization. Others require almost none at all. I like the flexibility of that. And while it would be nice to have everything "metadata-ed", I just don't have time for that. I do what I need to do and move on. Everybody's different and different workflows, jobs, teams, etc. can run differently.

As OS X started integrating more of a metadata approach at the OS level (tags, spotlight info, etc.) I thought I would adapt to more of that philosophy, but the truth is that I need both. There are many times (most?) where it's simply faster to go to that folder that you know for a fact has the files you need, rather than opening a search dialog and clicking/typing things in hopes you find what you need. That's my reality anyway.

Having said that, I think a lesson to be reminded of is the importance of metadata and how it can save you a lot of effort in the long run, however you decide to leverage it.


That's what I meant with "missing education".

In the past metadata never have been a big theme for people, mostly because NLEs don't use it. FCPX made a change in approaching this stuff
The other thing is the "lazy user". Many (depending on their job in the production chain) say something like "Puh, that's not my job !".
Times change and jobs change. For example audio Bwave files could contain a real lot of important metadata, P2 recordings and other Cam files as well. In real world they are not really used, because nobody feels responsible for those.

If everybody will "play the game" Simon's approach would be close to perfect - though it's still a long way.
And there never be an "one for all solution". But especially if you're a "one man show" you should think about this concept and how to use metadata options in your production chain.

- Andreas

P.S.
Karsten I sent you a PM

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