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TOPIC: STOP MOTION - How to create new project as 10FPS?

STOP MOTION - How to create new project as 10FPS? 05 Apr 2020 17:37 #105916

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arc wrote: All my stop motion animation was done at 24 FPS using a Bolex. That being said I would not do it that way today. I can only hope the original poster can take the information that was given and decide what will be the best solution in the year 2020 based on his hardware and NLE.


Apart from not using a Bolex,which I agree is cumbersome, why wouldn’t you shoot at 24? If you use Dragonframe, which most professionals use to shoot stop motion, you use DSLRs and shoot at 24FPS. Dragonframe allows you to program the number of frames captured either automatically or manually, so why would you not shoot to the speed everyone knows and understands. Feature stop motion films from Laika (where I used to work) or Aardman are shot at 24fps. Stop motion TV commercials for broadcast are shot at 24 FPS All the animators, DPs, camera assistants and editors understand 24FPS. In 2020. What are you talking about?

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STOP MOTION - How to create new project as 10FPS? 05 Apr 2020 18:46 #105917

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I shoot all my stop motion animation with a DSLR at 24 FPS.
As PaulG stated Dragonframe is really good. A lot of options and tools.
And a very handy Bluetooth controller for the software.

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STOP MOTION - How to create new project as 10FPS? 05 Apr 2020 21:15 #105920

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PaulG,

You can use Dragonframe but the original poster wants to use FCPX. If I want to spell my name with pennies sliding into frames I can move them 1 millimeter at a time or 1 centimeter at a time. You could easily use any Nikon, Sony or Canon camera (even USB) and take one photo and have the length by default in any NLE be one frame, two frames, ten frames etc. You can have 30 FPS or 60 FPS. You have full control over the animations frame rate and speed. You can easily speed it up or slow it down. When I used the Bolex it was going to playback at 24 FPS on the film projector. Some things might animate a little slower some things might animate a little faster but that is not the case today.

As of 2020 you can move the animated object however you want and in post production get the timing 100% to your taste. You could not do that coming straight from a Bolex but you can now with any NLE.

I have not done any stop motion with my DSLR but I have done time lapse photography. There is no 24 FPS 30 FPs etc. There are only single images. You decide if each image will be held for two frames or ten frames. Will the project be 24 FPS, 60 FPS or 1080i.

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STOP MOTION - How to create new project as 10FPS? 05 Apr 2020 21:25 #105921

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Albo wrote: I shoot all my stop motion animation with a DSLR at 24 FPS.
As PaulG stated Dragonframe is really good. A lot of options and tools.
And a very handy Bluetooth controller for the software.


You have a DSLR camera not a Bolex. You are simply taking picture with no dedicated frame rate. You might opt to put then in sequence that is 24 FPS.

I have not done any stop motion with my DSLR but I have done time lapse photography. There is no 24 FPS 30 FPs etc. There are only single images RAW or JPEG that can be taken in intervals. You can do it every five seconds or every five minutes. You decide if each image will be held for two frames or ten frames in your NLE. Will the project be 24 FPS, 60 FPS or 1080i? You decide that yourself the camera does not have a frame rate.

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STOP MOTION - How to create new project as 10FPS? 05 Apr 2020 21:58 #105922

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arc wrote:

Albo wrote: I shoot all my stop motion animation with a DSLR at 24 FPS.
As PaulG stated Dragonframe is really good. A lot of options and tools.
And a very handy Bluetooth controller for the software.


You have a DSLR camera not a Bolex. You are simply taking picture with no dedicated frame rate. You might opt to put then in sequence that is 24 FPS.

I have not done any stop motion with my DSLR but I have done time lapse photography. There is no 24 FPS 30 FPs etc. There are only single images RAW or JPEG that can be taken in intervals. You can do it every five seconds or every five minutes. You decide if each image will be held for two frames or ten frames in your NLE. Will the project be 24 FPS, 60 FPS or 1080i? You decide that yourself the camera does not have a frame rate.


At the risk of sounding like a jerk, I don't care about anything other than professional methods of shooting stop motion. The pros shoot at a dedicated frame rate (usually 24fps) and hand their footage off to post to cut in. They don't shoot at odd frame rates and hope the editor understands what to do. Dragonframe is an absolutely AMAZING program and cheap at $245. I only wish we had something like that when I started out. You don't shoot decent stop motion without a capture system so that you can see what you're doing on set. It is NOT time-lapse photography. It is highly interactive and hands on. You are judging your work on every frame. You are not making animation decisions in post. That way lies madness.

FCPX is a great editing program but SUCKS at animation tasks. It doesn't understand image sequences and can't perform simple operations like creating loops. There are ways to adjust the frame rate just like any other kind of footage, but this is something I'd want to do by exception, not by rule. You do not want to mess with all your footage on a frame by frame basis unless you haven't a clue how to shoot it in the first place. Ask any animator who has to create animation by hand (stop motion, cel animators) and you will find a disciplined artist who plans his or her shots meticulously before execution. Dragonframe is essential in all phases of set work. It helps you map stuff out and stick to a shooting plan. It gives you real-time feedback of how your animation is going. If you think you're going to leave all of this stuff to post, you don't know what you're doing and you're certainly not a pro. In the old days, we had to wait until the next morning to see what we'd shot. Now, there's no excuse not shoot things exactly how you want and re-shoot it on set then and there if it's going off the rails. People who see stop motion as some kind of low tech animation process don't have a clue.

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STOP MOTION - How to create new project as 10FPS? 06 Apr 2020 01:14 #105924

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PaulG

When we did our stop motion animation in college our Bolex was not connected to any type of monitor. We had to know what we were doing. That being said I have done stop motion animation many times with good results. So did my classmates. If you want we can both spell our name using pennies and a simple DSLR camera and see who gets a better result. I would not make the offer if I had no experience doing stop motion animation. Just for the record I used a ruler to measure the pennies and make the movements very precise. Precise movement of the object is much important than frame rates. We also did a lot of cut out animation like South Park in college. If you want to see who can do the best cut out animation I am up for it. That being said I have also used a light box for line drawing animation. Don't get me wrong cell animation is a lot easier considering you can draw Fred Flintstone's body, head, arms legs, dog, house etc on separate cells and swap them out as needed.

You keep saying 24 FPS as some magical number for animation. It is not. It is just the frame rate of film. What if the frame rate of film was 36 FPS? Would 36 FPS be the new magic number for animation that we should all use in 2020? Why would 3-D animation software give you the option of 15 FPS, 24 FPS, 30 FPS 60 FPS etc if all animation is supposed to be done at 24 FPS? In the year 2020 you never know if the end result will be in the Movie Theater on TV or on the web.

That being said people have done stop motion animation with good results using several different NLE. The original poster wants to use FCPX. I am not saying FCPX is the best option nor did I ever.

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STOP MOTION - How to create new project as 10FPS? 06 Apr 2020 01:54 #105925

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arc wrote: PaulG

You keep saying 24 FPS as some magical number for animation. It is not. It is just the frame rate of film. What if the frame rate of film was 36 FPS? Would 36 FPS be the new magic number for animation that we should all use in 2020? Why would 3-D animation software give you the option of 15 FPS, 24 FPS, 30 FPS 60 FPS etc if all animation is supposed to be done at 24 FPS? In the year 2020 you never know if the end result will be in the Movie Theater on TV or on the web.

.


Arc - why waste time worrying about weird frame rates like 36fps? What's the point of working outside of standard industry frame rates? CGI, apart from render times, doesn't cause the animator any more effort to work at 15 or 30 or 24 or 36. So who cares. If you want to go on about shooting stop motion with Bolex cameras (only ever a student/enthusiast tool) that's fine, but it is NOT how stop motion is done in 2020. Real, working, professional animators in 2020 use capture systems like Dragonframe. I started in an era when we used surface gauges to judge animation. Then we got VAS Lyon Lamb 3/4" single frame recorders that we shot along with our motion control systems. Then we had the Lunch Box digital frame recorder, a very crude frame store. Then we had Dragonframe. Each time a new piece of tech comes along, it helps improve the process, speed of capture and quality of animation.

Speaking of pennies, I worked on the original Penny cartoons on Peewee's Playhouse, so I've seen my share.

24FPS is not a magical number. It is an industry standard. For nearly 100 years. Only diletantes screw around with oddball frame rates. If you want to know why there's 15, 30 and 60. I'll tell you. Early computer animation for playback on computers (think early Flash or Macromedia Director) worked at 30 fps. Computer engineers didn't really worry about theatrical 24 fps playback. Because Internet bandwidth and computer horsepower was limited, a lot of DVD rom and early streaming had to play back at 15 fps in order to have smooth playback. 30 FPS was chosen because it relates to the US standard of 120V/60hz. That's why NTSC video standard developed in the 1930s was also pegged at 30 fps.

As I said, all film equipment (35mm real film) works at 24 fps. It is a world-wide standard. If you go to see Quentin Tarantino's latest film shot and projected on film, it will be 24fps. Not 36 not 29.97 not 15. No one gives a crap about HFR stuff other than Peter Jackson, and most people thought the 48fps Hobbit looked terrible. I saw all the variations and the 48fps stuff looked like it had the dreaded "soap opera" effect. When DSLRs first started shooting hi-res video, it took a while to get the camera manufacturers (who came from the world of video) to add 24 FPS (or 23.98 or both) to their cameras. Because film-makers INSISTED on it. Because it is deemed to be the closest analog to shooting on film which is equated with the term "cinematic". Go look at any professional light meter and it still references 24fps. Even Netflix prefers UHD 24p material.

Your point about precise movement of material and frames rates makes no sense. They are not related. It is up to the animator to decide how long it takes to get from here to there. The animator does not worry about the frame rate, because it's a standard and the other animators are doing the same thing. And the editor understands what she's working with. And so on. The reason most high end stop motion is done at 24 is because that's how it is. There's no value in shooting in some other frame rate. It doesn't improve the work and it screws up anyone else who has to deal with it. If you want to sit in your own private Idaho and make 36fps films, have at it. No one will hire you to do that. The reason I hire professionals is so that I don't have to explain film 101 to them every time they show up on set and I get predictable, excellent results. It's not free jazz.

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STOP MOTION - How to create new project as 10FPS? 06 Apr 2020 02:52 #105926

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One other thing: frame rates are not really creative choices. They are dictated by technical/distribution requirements. We don't deliver in non-standard rates because our work will be rejected as not fitting the technical requirement. Animators make adjustments to deal with those requirements. If you tell me the computer DVD rom standard is 12 fps, then I think of 24fps on twos. An animator might decide the animation is generally on twos for most of the quick action, but may jump to ones for sections where you want it smoother to to threes where you want it choppier (for some reason). But these are choices that I make either in my animation program (CGI, cel, After Effects) or on set when I'm capturing. The only time you shoot off speed in live action is to speed up or slow down the footage relative to the projection/playback standard. On Blackmagic cameras, you will see the FPS stated as 60/24 meaning we're shooting 60fps to be played back at 24 (ie slow motion). It's not a 60FPS project, it's 24. But if you want to shoot 60 for 60, go for it. Cameras won't object. But hand animators will because it's too much effort to animate at high frame rates for little perceptible difference. If you ask an animator to work at 12 fps, they will think 24 on twos, they won't think 12 fps.

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STOP MOTION - How to create new project as 10FPS? 06 Apr 2020 03:01 #105927

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PualG

24FPS is not a magical number. It is an industry standard. For nearly 100 years. Only diletantes screw around with oddball frame rates. If you want to know why there's 15, 30 and 60. I'll tell you. Early computer animation for playback on computers (think early Flash or Macromedia Director) worked at 30 fps. Computer engineers didn't really worry about theatrical 24 fps playback. Because Internet bandwidth and computer horsepower was limited, a lot of DVD rom and early streaming had to play back at 15 fps in order to have smooth playback. 30 FPS was chosen because it relates to the US standard of 120V/60hz. That's why NTSC video standard developed in the 1930s was also pegged at 30 fps.



WTF? I stated it is an industry standard already. I stated film playbacks at 24 FPS that is why 24 FPS is used but there is nothing magical about it 24 FPS. NTSC is 59.94i about 60 interlaced fields. In the end about 30 FPS but there is nothing magical about 30 FPS when you consider PAL is 25 FPS or about 50 fields.

You are talking about professional equipment and lot of crap that is irrelevant. There are people that do stop motion animation on YouTube all the time using their own techniques. I don't think the original poster has the same equipment you have.


PualG

Your point about precise movement of material and frames rates makes no sense. They are not related. It is up to the animator to decide how long it takes to get from here to there. The animator does not worry about the frame rate, because it's a standard and the other animators are doing the same thing. And the editor understands what she's working with



You have to have an idea of how much you want the object to move each time you move it. That is where the planing ahead comes in. You can have a person's hands move form their hip to mouth in one single movement of the arm but it would be much better to show it with several intervals from the starting point to the stopping point. I can also do 3-D animation which uses some of the planing of stop motion except the computer adds key-frames for smooth motion. If you render 3-D animation at 8 FPS it will look like stop motion animation. At 60 FPS it is silky smooth.


PaulG

If you want to go on about shooting stop motion with Bolex cameras (only ever a student/enthusiast tool) that's fine, but it is NOT how stop motion is done in 2020. Real, working, professional animators in 2020 use capture systems like Dragonframe.


You are a being a bit dishonest considering I never said anything about using a Bolex in 2020. My guess is the original poster might be trying to use a DSLR camera. That is why I stated lets both use a DSLR camera and see who gets better results. I know cell animation is done using an Oxberry but who has an Oxberry? Who uses a Stenbeck? You have to kind of advise people with the equipment they have. I am not even 100% sure what the orignal poster would be using. Another forum member mentioned using a DSLR.


PualG

Even Netflix prefers UHD 24p material.


ATSC 3.0 will be cable of 60 FPS and 120 FPS. Why? For super fluid motion. Why is Broadcast done at 60 fields as opposed to 30 frames? Smooth and fluid motion. 1280 X 720 at 60 P is also used for broadcast. Why? Smooth and fluid motion. 24 P is not silky smooth and fluid. No one is saying it does not work for stop motion animation. That being said no one would play 3-D video games a 24 FPS. To choppy.

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STOP MOTION - How to create new project as 10FPS? 06 Apr 2020 04:09 #105928

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Bandwidth. No one at Netflix or other distributors are interested in "super silky motion". at 120FPS They need their stuff to play easily with the majority of their subscribers. This super high frame rate stuff is the same BS as 3D TV, and we know where that went. It's already overly compressed. Yes, there are limited instances where high frame rates make sense (sports, forensics) but in general, they add nothing to the story or enjoyment.

As far as YouTubers doing whatever because they're too lazy or inexperienced to see how it's done to high standard, I don't care. There's good YouTube and bad YouTube. If the technical standard is too low, I tune out. If the execution sucks, I tune out. If the idea sucks, I tune out. I'm tired of people saying "whatever" its fine because it's on YouTube. If someone really cares about stop motion as an art form and is prepared to invest a little in it, the $250 for Dragonframe will pay itself back much faster than an extra lens or fancier light or whatever film gear you could get. Mastering your tools is important. I am not worried about neophytes who don't bother to investigate the best practices or think it doesn't matter.

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STOP MOTION - How to create new project as 10FPS? 06 Apr 2020 04:37 #105929

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One last note on HFR. Here's an article that perfectly encapsulates the problems of HFR
www.vulture.com/2019/10/how-high-frame-r...lees-gemini-man.html

My theory is that HFR is really beloved of video gamers and graphics card manufactures that equate HFR with higher quality or more realism. But except for a very few filmmakers, nobody is rushing to produce films or TV in tthis format.

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STOP MOTION - How to create new project as 10FPS? 06 Apr 2020 05:29 #105930

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I just have to beat this dead horse. NTSC is not 30fps nor is it 59.94i. NTSC has always been 29.97 frames per second interlaced, two fields to make each complete frame. It was intended to be 30fps but to allow it to conform to existing B&W sets the frequency used allowed the 28.97 frame rate.

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STOP MOTION - How to create new project as 10FPS? 06 Apr 2020 10:44 #105936

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"Three is a magic number!"

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STOP MOTION - How to create new project as 10FPS? 06 Apr 2020 10:46 #105937

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If you're animating for film, use 24fps.
If you're collaborating with others who use the film standard, use 24fps.
If you are doing this on your own to publish to the web or computer playback, use whatever frame rate you want.

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STOP MOTION - How to create new project as 10FPS? 06 Apr 2020 12:31 #105939

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Hello again,

You have a DSLR camera not a Bolex. You are simply taking picture with no dedicated frame rate. You might opt to put then in sequence that is 24 FPS.


I know that. I was simply stating that I use a DSLR to take the pictures and use 24FPS timeline to edit.
Inside DF you can also change whatever you want. I do that at 24 FPS.
Stop motion is all about how one feels movement and how it is translated to express emotions, tension etc...
All at 24 FPS.
I edit with other software my animation but always at 24FPS.
AE 24 FPS.
Anime 24 FPS
FCX 24 FPS
It makes it a lot easier to work, for me.

Quite a thread this as turned out to be!

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STOP MOTION - How to create new project as 10FPS? 06 Apr 2020 14:01 #105941

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Tom Wolsky wrote: I just have to beat this dead horse. NTSC is not 30fps nor is it 59.94i. NTSC has always been 29.97 frames per second interlaced, two fields to make each complete frame. It was intended to be 30fps but to allow it to conform to existing B&W sets the frequency used allowed the 28.97 frame rate.


The Intensity Shuttle only works with broadcast compliant frame rates, aspect ratios and resolutions. Do you see the 1080i59.94 option? The i is for interlaced. Two fields make up one frame.

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STOP MOTION - How to create new project as 10FPS? 06 Apr 2020 14:14 #105942

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Yes, camera manufacturers started doing this referring to their media as 1080i60, which looked cool. It's really BS. Nowhere in the 1953 specification for NTSC will you see the number 59.94. A frame of video took approximately 1/30 of a second to trace 525 lines, odds first and evens second, not all of the lines in the viewable raster, or shouldn't be.

This is the way it should be written

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STOP MOTION - How to create new project as 10FPS? 06 Apr 2020 14:22 #105943

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As far as YouTubers doing whatever because they're too lazy or inexperienced to see how it's done to high standard, I don't care. There's good YouTube and bad YouTube. If the technical standard is too low, I tune out. If the execution sucks, I tune out. If the idea sucks, I tune out.


I am starting to think you collaborate with people that do animation but I am wonder what your level of involvement actually is. It would be nice to see what you can do on your own. As I stated we can have a simple contest with line animation, cut out animation or even stop motion animation. The choice is yours. A cell animation contest would be hard since most people don't have an Oxberry.

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STOP MOTION - How to create new project as 10FPS? 06 Apr 2020 14:52 #105947

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Tom Wolsky wrote: Yes, camera manufacturers started doing this referring to their media as 1080i60, which looked cool. It's really BS. Nowhere in the 1953 specification for NTSC will you see the number 59.94. A frame of video took approximately 1/30 of a second to trace 525 lines, odds first and evens second, not all of the lines in the viewable raster, or shouldn't be.

This is the way it should be written


1080i 29.97 is listing the frames per second and letting you know there are interlaced fields. 1080i 59.94 is listing the fields per second not the frames per second. In the end it is the same thing.

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STOP MOTION - How to create new project as 10FPS? 06 Apr 2020 15:02 #105948

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It is the same thing indeed, but as normally we talk about frames per second as in 24fps, if you say 59.94i you need to stipulate that this is 59.95 fields per second, as it's technical possible and has been done to create a device that records in 119.88 fields per second.

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Last edit: by Tom Wolsky.